Marriage records

[Carla]

Sorry to ask yet another question...........


I am at the stage in my research where I may have to come to a conclusion that a couple in my ancestral tree were not actually legally married as I cannot find a record of their marriage anywhere.

I am sure I have the correct couple, Charles William Ward baptised 23.2.1857 Deptford, Lewisham, Greater London, England, United Kingdom and Sarah Ann Joyce b6.7.1855 Bow, All Hallows Bow Common, London, England. They had 5 children, one of which is my ggrandmother Emily Elizabeth Ward b13.7.1879 Poplar, Bromley, Middlesex, England. The 1901 census has Charles as head of house and Joseph Joyce, father-in-law, living with them all, therefore I concluded that Sarah’s maiden name is Joyce? The family research was done by another member of my family ages ago, and I thought I had rechecked the details and collected the 'paperwork' to prove it all, yet somehow I missed this.


I have looked through, Ancestry.co.uk, Findmypast, Family search, freeBDM and even googled 'family history' to see if any other sites would be useful to check out. I cannot believe that I have not got the marriage details. So I just wondered if anyone has some advice on where else I can look? I have checked the birth details of the children, and looked at where everyone was born, and all sorts. Right now I am banging my head against a wall as I am sure I am missing something so, I am throwing myself on everyone’s mercy and begging someone to guide me in the right direction before I scream (I thought researching family history would be a calm and relaxing hobby)..........

 

[Bee]

Although her father's name was Joyce could she have been married previously before she married Charles William Ward? Or maybe she was illegitimate, took her mother's name and later found her father?
I am confused about your g-grandmother's place of birth. Poplar is/was London/Middlesex but Bromley is Kent.
Not much help any of these observations but you never know.....

 

[SuzanneD]

Some thoughts / possibilities as to why you can't find them:

• Sarah's maiden name is Joyce but she was a widow when she married Charles (and so was married under a different surname). Given their ages when Emily was born this seems unlikely, but it's not impossible given high levels of mortality.
• Their first names are given differently in the records (Charles could appear as Charles William, Charles, William Charles or William)
• Sometimes in the 19th century and earlier 'father-in-law' means 'step-father'. By 1901 I'd expect it to have its current meaning, though.

Can you find other marriages in the right time and place for Charles William Ward (in any of its variants) and a Sarah Ann of a different surname? If so, I'd then check for a prior marriage of Sarah Ann Joyce to a man of that surname (do any of the earlier census records for the couple have step-children in the household?).

 

[SuzanneD]

I am confused about your g-grandmother's place of birth. Poplar is/was London/Middlesex but Bromley is Kent.

There's also a suburb called Bromley-by-Bow in Poplar, or Bromley for short, just to confuse us all.

 

[Heather]

I am confused about your g-grandmother's place of birth. Poplar is/was London/Middlesex but Bromley is Kent.

You are correct, Bromley is in Kent Bee, but this is Bromley St Leonard which is in Middlesex, oh these English place names !!

 

[Carla]

Although her father's name was Joyce could she have been married previously before she married Charles William Ward? Or maybe she was illegitimate, took her mother's name and later found her father?
I am confused about your g-grandmother's place of birth. Poplar is/was London/Middlesex but Bromley is Kent.
Not much help any of these observations but you never know.....

Thanks everyone .... the place of birth was Bromley by Bow, I believe, as all that side came from London but it has given me food for thought and I will investigate that further! It could be where a mistake has been made?

 

[Pauline]

At the risk of asking the obvious ......

If you have checked out the birth records of the children of Charles William & Sarah Ann Joyce, do you not have Sarah's maiden name? It is presumably given on your grandmother's birth certificate - or that of any of the other children.

It certainly seems plausible that Sarah Ann's maiden name was Joyce, particularly since, according to baptism and census records, Joseph Joyce had a daughter Sarah Ann born around the right time and in the right place. But that doesn't necessarily mean she was the right Sarah Ann!

If you can't find a marriage then this usually means that the couple didn't formally marry, or that the marriage has been missed from, or incorrectly entered in, the GRO indexes.

Knowing that mistakes can be made, I think I might be inclined to browse through some of the marriage registers in the Bromley by Bow area and see if you can locate it that way.

 

[AnneC]

Or maybe she was illegitimate, took her mother's name and later found her father?

Baptism of Sarah Ann Joyce with her brother and sister on 3 May 1857 gives her birth as 6 July 1855, which seems to suggest she grew up with both her parents - with this marriage as possible for her parents. Still doesn't help with the marriage of Sarah & Charles though. Sarah was with her parents in 1871 aged 16, and married to Charles with a 5 year old daughter in 1881 - so doesn't give much time for her to have married someone else before Charles. Hope you manage to find the marriage eventually Carla.

(PS I'm assuming that you have access to Ancestry as you mentioned you had searched there, so hopefully the links will work for you)

 

[trebor]

Their first names are given differently in the records (Charles could appear as Charles William, Charles, William Charles or William)

Or Chas or Chs

 

[Britjan]

It might confuse you further but there are some public trees for Charles at Mundia , and although none show the marriage detail nearly all seem convinced that he did indeed marry Sarah Joyce. It looks as if Ancestry made the leap which everybody has duly copied without referencing a BMD or church record which is very annoying.
It did occur to me that they might for some reason have married in a non-conformist church and sometimes those records are harder to find. There is some information at Family Search on non-conformist churches in the area and the names of the adjoining parishes. The real puzzler is that the marriage doesn't seem to be in free BMD which is generally pretty accurate by the 1870's. However there is a Sarah Ann Joyce married in Poplar in Dec 1876 and although it seems she likely married Thomas Robinson you'll probably want to confirm that she's the wrong Sarah Ann or that for some reason the record is incorrect.
It might be worth tracking both Charles and Sarah's brothers and sisters to see where they married , I've found strong family traditions even when families appear to have moved.

 

[Liberty]

there is a Sarah Ann Joyce married in Poplar in Dec 1876 and although it seems she likely married Thomas Robinson you'll probably want to confirm that she's the wrong Sarah Ann or that for some reason the record is incorrect.

There is a Thomas + Sarah Robinson at 2, Clarence St, Bethnal Green in the 1881 census, born in Whitechapel in 1853 and 1856 respectively. Those with better knowledge of London may know if these are likely to be the couple marrying in Poplar in 1876.

 

[Pauline]

However there is a Sarah Ann Joyce married in Poplar in Dec 1876 and although it seems she likely married Thomas Robinson you'll probably want to confirm that she's the wrong Sarah Ann or that for some reason the record is incorrect.

In the register at Ancestry (Poplar parish church) a Sarah Ann Joyce is shown as marrying Edwin Sawyer on 23 Oct 1876 but she was a widow and her father given as George Langdon.

Also from registers at Ancestry, this time at Bromley St Leonard, a Joseph Thomas Joyce, apparently son of the same Joseph Joyce, married 2 Aug 1874 and one of the witnesses appears to be a Sarah Joyce. In theory this Sarah could be Sarah Ann Joyce acting as witness for her brother, and if so, it suggests she was still unmarried at that time.

 

[Britjan]

.......this time at Bromley St Leonard, a Joseph Thomas Joyce, apparently son of the same Joseph Joyce, married 2 Aug 1874 and one of the witnesses appears to be a Sarah Joyce. In theory this Sarah could be Sarah Ann Joyce acting as witness for her brother, and if so, it suggests she was still unmarried at that time. Pauline

The other way you could get some confirmation would be Sarah acting as a witness for a marriage or baptism sponsor using her married name. I have found witnesses extremely useful in confirming marriages.

 

[Carla]

Baptism of Sarah Ann Joyce with her brother and sister on 3 May 1857 gives her birth as 6 July 1855, which seems to suggest she grew up with both her parents - with this marriage as possible for her parents. Still doesn't help with the marriage of Sarah & Charles though. Sarah was with her parents in 1871 aged 16, and married to Charles with a 5 year old daughter in 1881 - so doesn't give much time for her to have married someone else before Charles. Hope you manage to find the marriage eventually Carla.

(PS I'm assuming that you have access to Ancestry as you mentioned you had searched there, so hopefully the links will work for you)

I have given this a rest for the morning but am about to restart the search! The marriage you have linked to is indeed Sarah's parents and I agree with the fact that the marriage, if indeed there was one, happened after 1871. I have looked at so many marriages at later dates, even, because Sarah and Charles could have married after their children were born, but still cannot find any details. I double checked the birth certificate of my ggrandmother Emily E Ward, as I have a copy, and it states her mother is Sarah Ann Joyce and her father Charles William Ward so I know I have those details correct. It's just a matter of finding that marriage! I have also been looking at as many marriages as I can with 'Sarah Joyce' to see if she briefly married someone else, and then checking 'Charles William Ward' and variations to see of he married a Sarah with a different surname. There were a number of possibles but so far I have ruled them out. Still I will keep going....

Thank you so much for all the ideas

 

[Carla]

In the register at Ancestry (Poplar parish church) a Sarah Ann Joyce is shown as marrying Edwin Sawyer on 23 Oct 1876 but she was a widow and her father given as George Langdon.

Also from registers at Ancestry, this time at Bromley St Leonard, a Joseph Thomas Joyce, apparently son of the same Joseph Joyce, married 2 Aug 1874 and one of the witnesses appears to be a Sarah Joyce. In theory this Sarah could be Sarah Ann Joyce acting as witness for her brother, and if so, it suggests she was still unmarried at that time.

Pauline

I did try to turn it around and see if Charles W Ward was registered as marrying a 'Sarah Ann' with a different surname but of those I found none had my Sarah's father Joseph Joyce, sadly.

Joseph Thomas Joyce was Sarah's brother, and actually I will recheck if any of the other sibling's marriages had Sarah as a witness, as I hadnt thought of checking the witnesses.

 

[Liberty]

I will recheck if any of the other sibling's marriages had Sarah as a witness, as I hadnt thought of checking the witnesses.

Witnesses can be a godsend in sorting out who is who. Not particularly helpful if it is just the fathers who act as witnesses, but I have several instances of brothers/sisters, which is great and on occasion a brother-in-law, and then a whole set of questions are answered all in one go.

 

[Heather]

Sarah, I'm not sure if you have this information but in the 1891 census, did you know that Charles and Sarah are living next door to Joseph and Eleanor Joyce. In the 1901 census Charles S Ward age 78 is in the household and Joseph Joyce age 70 a widower and father in law is there also. No sign of a marriage for Charles and Sarah.

 

[Carla]

Sarah, I'm not sure if you have this information but in the 1891 census, did you know that Charles and Sarah are living next door to Joseph and Eleanor Joyce. In the 1901 census Charles S Ward age 78 is in the household and Joseph Joyce age 70 a widower and father in law is there also. No sign of a marriage for Charles and Sarah.

Hiya, yes I have all that information, but thank you very much for reminding me. When I did my 'siblings of direct ancestors' research recently I found all sorts and it helped to give me a good picture of the families in the area. I am now 100% sure I have the correct couple, and that they are indeed the parents of my ggrandmother and all her siblings, but I just cannot find the marriage. Today I am going to send away for one (or more if I can afford it) of the birth certificates of the children of Sarah and Charles and see what they say. The clue will obviously be where the name of the mother is, as, if they were married, I would hope it would say 'Sarah Ward formally Joyce'. It's the last thing I can think of, to be honest, unless someone else can come up with another idea ?

I think I have now narrowed down the years for a possible marriage. It's between 1871 and 1881 because of the census change of surname for Sarah from Joyce to ward. It is after August 1874 because Sarah appeared to have the surname Joyce when she was a witness at her brother's wedding. I have one last thing to check and that is the birth record for Charles and Sarah's first child Clara Louise b abt 1886. What name was her birth registered in? The censuses state Ward but was that correct? If it is Ward then the marriage must have taken place between 1874 and 1876, but we shall see. If it was Joyce that gives me a slightly wider time frame, and food for thought!

I just really appreciate everyone's input here. I have been given so many ideas, support and help that I really feel a thank you is not enough (mind you I could always post a picture of virtual chocolates for you to all help yourself to but maybe that is going one internet step too far ).

 

[Liberty]

It's just possible that there was not a 'marriage' so much as as a point at which she started to go by a different name. Hard to know why they would not marry if there was no obstacle (such as pre-existing marriage - see 'Jane Eyre') but such things have been known to happen (believe it or not).

 

[Tim]

Can I throw a spanner in the works?

On the 1901 Census, The head of the house is Charles S Ward, and normally the other occupants are shown as a relation to the head.

Hence Charles W Ward is shown as Son.

Now Joseph Joyce is shown as Father in Law (to the Head of the House). Have you considered the possibility that this is actually correct? That Charles S the father married a Joyce, and not Charles W the son?