Convict brothers transported VDL -more information needed on one

[Bob Spiers]

Looking at a current map of Victoria, your "Scot" is either "Scotsburn" or "Scotchman's Lead" both close to Buninyong - and yes, I'd say both are Buninyong (I'd probably go with Scotsburn, but without seeing the birth register who would know.) Given that information, I would doubt that your George Westbury Snr from Warrnambool was making regular trips north to Ballarat and Ararat frequently enough for a relationship with Jane Walker, perhaps there's another George Westbury around. Might do to check for a George Westbury in Victoria's death records?

Thanks for the additional information and to be honest, picking up the last part of the inset quote, I too have my doubts about Jane Walker. So much so she must just be relegated to 'Notes' in my Tribal Pages because at the moment it is far from conclusive we are talking of the same George. Here are some pros and cons and leave you and others to judge which are which:

*I have not discovered another George Westbury of the right age to sire a (first) child in 1856.
*GFW Jr was born 1854 so only 2 years old in 1856!
*GFW Sr after being pardoned settled in Port Philip (then belonging to NSW and by 1853 to Victoria).
*He married Mary Ann Green (usually referred to as Ann Green) at St James, Melbourne in 1850.
*Their first child born 1852. (I do not currently have information to show where born, but of course two years later in 1854 GFW Jr is born in Melbourne).
*George and Ann remained in the Melbourne area throughout 1854-1856 (surmised)
*The first child be born Warrnambool was Ann Charlotte in 1857 and the others thereafter.
*We know all Jane's children were born to the northern part of Victoria , far enough removed from Melbourne and positively distant from Warrnambool.

Conclusion: Remove all references to Jane's children and leave George and Ann with the 8 children born within marriage. Check to see if I can find reference to another George Westbury possible living in northern Victoria (not high priority but more to positively rule out GFW Sr). Check death records as Jorghes suggests.

 

[Bob Spiers]

And you can see if you can find Daniel - who knows if he was still around in 1903.

That is now my highest priority

 

[Bob Spiers]

I thought you might look to see George Frederick Westbury Sr (known as George Westbury) as he was in 1863 established in Warrnambool. Father at that time of 5 children and married to Mary (Ann) Green. I think he cuts quite a stately figure. (Sadly I do not have an image of his brother Daniel, the delinquent convict)

 

[Bob Spiers]

Whilst probing for Daniel (without success so far) I found a George Westbury in an Ancestry search for the 1856 Electoral year for the district of North Grant, sub-district of Buninyong, Victoria. This has to be the spouse or partner for Jane Walker and the father of her 4 children. The first child (Harry George Westbury) was born in 1856 in Buninyong.

I cannot entirely rule out that my ancestor George Frederick - who we know was in Melbourne in 1854 and in Warnnambool by 1857 - did not move in search of work to the north of Victoria during 1855-56 but I think it unlikely. Add to this the fact that the additional children born to Jane (1859-1868 all in north Victoria) overlap GFW's time in the south at Warrnambool, that is enough in my mind to eliminate George-Jane and family from my Tree and research.

 

[jorghes]

Thanks for the additional information and to be honest, picking up the last part of the inset quote, I too have my doubts about Jane Walker. So much so she must just be relegated to 'Notes' in my Tribal Pages because at the moment it is far from conclusive we are talking of the same George. Here are some pros and cons and leave you and others to judge which are which:

*I have not discovered another George Westbury of the right age to sire a (first) child in 1856.
*GFW Jr was born 1854 so only 2 years old in 1856!
*GFW Sr after being pardoned settled in Port Philip (then belonging to NSW and by 1853 to Victoria).
*He married Mary Ann Green (usually referred to as Ann Green) at St James, Melbourne in 1850.
*Their first child born 1852. (I do not currently have information to show where born, but of course two years later in 1854 GFW Jr is born in Melbourne).
*George and Ann remained in the Melbourne area throughout 1854-1856 (surmised)
*The first child be born Warrnambool was Ann Charlotte in 1857 and the others thereafter.
*We know all Jane's children were born to the northern part of Victoria , far enough removed from Melbourne and positively distant from Warrnambool.

Conclusion: Remove all references to Jane's children and leave George and Ann with the 8 children born within marriage. Check to see if I can find reference to another George Westbury possible living in northern Victoria (not high priority but more to positively rule out GFW Sr). Check death records as Jorghes suggests.

Sounds like some logical deductions there given the available information! I'm glad I've been able to help you fix some of the details in place; and now back to Daniel!

I like the picture, looks like a very distinguished individual!

 

[Bob Spiers]

and now back to Daniel!

Yes he is proving difficult to find other than the sundry reports about his early convict days and the Newspaper reports about further imprisonment on Cockatoo Island. But what happened to him -and Alice - after Daniel was released from sentence. Neither show in any data base I know about (and those are mostly the ones you pinpointed in the first place) nor have I turned them up in Ancestry or FMP searches.

He was born 1817 and we know he can be found up to 1854 (aged 37) -Alice not sure but likely early 30's. We can deduce a prison sentence taking him up to about 1860 give or take so he/they may have stayed in NSW, returned to Victoria, even Tasmania, or gone further afield. I do not believe one or either they had the wherewithal to make it back to the UK (and I have not been able to turn any evidence up that they did) so are you able to point me in any direction, and if so, a link to appropriate data bases would be a great help.

Glad you liked George Frederick's photo you should see the one of his father (also a Daniel) back in the UK holding a long clay pipe and looking equally distinguished.

 

[jorghes]

Yes he is proving difficult to find other than the sundry reports about his early convict days and the Newspaper reports about further imprisonment on Cockatoo Island. But what happened to him -and Alice - after Daniel was released from sentence. Neither show in any data base I know about (and those are mostly the ones you pinpointed in the first place) nor have I turned them up in Ancestry or FMP searches.

He was born 1817 and we know he can be found up to 1854 (aged 37) -Alice not sure but likely early 30's. We can deduce a prison sentence taking him up to about 1860 give or take so he/they may have stayed in NSW, returned to Victoria, even Tasmania, or gone further afield. I do not believe one or either they had the wherewithal to make it back to the UK (and I have not been able to turn any evidence up that they did) so are you able to point me in any direction, and if so, a link to appropriate data bases would be a great help.

Glad you liked George Frederick's photo you should see the one of his father (also a Daniel) back in the UK holding a long clay pipe and looking equally distinguished.

I'm trying to think of something, but I'm drawing a blank, especially if he doesn't turn up in any of the UK incoming passenger lists. You would probably check the passenger lists that are on Ancestry for Victorian, NSW, WA etc, but they are all incoming lists and probably will only bring him up if he's travelling between the states.

Is there a Daniel Westbury on the electoral roll come 1903 in any of the states? (I don't remember one when I did a brief search) Otherwise, he seems to have done a very good impression of vanishing into thin air!
(I did find a public tree which suggested Daniel had gone back to England and died in 1883, but considering most of their sources seem to be England censuses from the time Daniel would have been in Australia, it seems they are not doing logical searching. - plus their birthdate is listed as 1806) Ironically, they seem to have done better research for George Frederick.

I'm currently stumped, I'm afraid. The only other thing I can think of is that either he died on Cockatoo Island, or he changed his name and no one has cottoned on!

 

[Bob Spiers]

(I did find a public tree which suggested Daniel had gone back to England and died in 1883, but considering most of their sources seem to be England censuses from the time Daniel would have been in Australia

Yes I found one or two of these and am pretty certain it is a case of the blind leading the blind so often found in Ancestry Trees, unfortunately. If they have the same Daniel Westbury, born the same time and place to the same family, then they should know he was convicted to a 14 years sentence of transportation. They make no allowance for this and so the rest of what they show UK Census wise makes no sense either, including a death registration in 1883 in the UK.

I'm currently stumped, I'm afraid. The only other thing I can think of is that either he died on Cockatoo Island, or he changed his name and no one has cottoned on!

You have helped me enough already and no need to worry that you are stumped. I shall continue to seek him out as best I am able, but should I meet the ubiquitous 'brick wall' then enough is enough.

After all I set myself the task of finding out all I could of my Great x 3 Grandparents -Daniel Westbury Sr & his two wives, both sisters. Susanna producing 11 children and her widowed sister Elizabeth who Daniel married after Susanna died. Such an amazing family and as a last task I needed to find out more about the two delinquent sons. George Frederick & Daniel Jr. Daniel proved troublesome hence starting this posting. I'm glad I did because -'with a little help from my friends' as the song says - my research has advanced in leaps and bounds, and I know so much more how each fared in Australia.

Finally a little update on Daniel Jr's Australian wife Alice McLean. I am now reasonably certain she was the Alice McLean born Lanarkshire, Scotland in 1826 (from the Gorballs,Glasgow no less ) . She was sentenced with two other women in 1847 at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey) to 7 years transportation (nature of her crime unknown) and was transported out on the 'Elizabeth & Henry' convict ship (all female) in 1848. I will pick up her trail if I can as , who knows, it might lead on to Daniel; or not as the case may be.

 

[VTinOZ]

Hi Bob,
I've been looking for Alice McLean & found her Old Bailey record, under Alice M' LEAN... crime was theft of a watch.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-1962-18470816&div=t18470816-1962#highlight
it had an interesting note about her earlier conviction as Alice THOMPSON when confined for 1 year.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-1563-18430508&div=t18430508-1563#highlight

Some age discrepancy, 19 in 1843 & just 21 in 1847 !

So far I haven't found a marriage between an Alice Thompson to any McLEAN between 1843 & 1847.

There was a note on one of her convict records of native place which I thought said Edinburgh, same record said married with 1 child & more but I couldn't decipher the rest.

Such fun all this sleuthing.

 

[VTinOZ]

Sorry everyone, I never remember to make those tidy little links.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Sorry everyone, I never remember to make those tidy little links.

Never mind the untidy links VT the information you provide is welcome and will keep me occupied for quite some time as I take it all in. As you say sleuthing can be fun and Miss or Mrs Thompson/McLean quite something. I almost feel sorry for Daniel but perhaps they were made for each other?

 

[VTinOZ]

Hard to say how suited, or not, until something more can be found, will look more later in the day, past my bedtime now so brain slowing rapidly

 

[VTinOZ]

Last for now... re Cockatoo Island records, here's a list of what is held at Western Sydney Record Centre (NSW Sate archives)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/agency/2126
As you're in England perhaps an email to there might be useful... the records aren't digitised but some are on microfilm/fiche so if you give the reference numbers you never know they may offer something useful,or they could just say it costs ?? for them to look.
info@records.nsw.gov.au
Perhaps worth a try.

 

[Britjan]

While you are it Bob you might like to see if a possible descendant served in WWI with the AEF. Here's what Lives of the First World War turns up and the ANZAC records are the best in the Commonwealth.

 

[jorghes]

Yes I found one or two of these and am pretty certain it is a case of the blind leading the blind so often found in Ancestry Trees, unfortunately. If they have the same Daniel Westbury, born the same time and place to the same family, then they should know he was convicted to a 14 years sentence of transportation. They make no allowance for this and so the rest of what they show UK Census wise makes no sense either, including a death registration in 1883 in the UK.

You have helped me enough already and no need to worry that you are stumped. I shall continue to seek him out as best I am able, but should I meet the ubiquitous 'brick wall' then enough is enough.

Thank you! I'm glad that I've been a help.

To further what Britjan is saying, one of the best places to look for Australian Defence Forces records is at the National Archives of Australia, in their free Name Search - not all of the ANZAC records have been digitised, but a large number have, plus they will digitise them if you ask for the files, can't remember if they charge for it. (Did a brief search of Army records - from Boer War through to post WWII - and came up with a Westbury, Lindsay Gordon, born in Cobden who served in World War II.)
Ancestry also have a good set of records; plus you can search the embarkation records at the Australian War Memorial website - the search will go through a number of other records as well, including the Honour Roll, Commendation Roll and the rest (there's a list just below the search area). One of the best things it includes are the Red Cross Records for Wounded and Missing, which gives you a file on reports and inquiries about those who were listed wounded and missing. I got a file on one my great-uncles who served in World War I, who according to the Red Cross file, was "last seen heading for enemy lines" at Bullecourt (the original letter was written by another one of my great-uncles).

I complete agree about the ANZAC records being the best, of course.

 

[Britjan]

I complete agree about the ANZAC records being the best, of course.

I came across them in detail when I took the MOOC from Monash Uni on line through Future Learn. The course was very thought provoking in terms of input from participants as well.

 

[jorghes]

Have hit gold dust in the National Archives, with some distinct possibles for your Westbury relatives:
(Both WWI)
- Westbury, George Frederick, born in Echuca Vic; Enlisted in World War I in Fremantle, next of kin (mother): Catherine Westbury. (the search itself gives you birth place, enlistment place, birthdate if they have it, and next of kin). with a digitised record
- Westbury, John Lloyd Arthur, born in Carlton Vic, Enlisted in Perth, next of kin (mother) Catherine Eliza Westbury; also has a digitised record.

Other possibles (But I only picked out the ones who were born in Victoria within the right area, there may be more):
WWII:
George Henry Westbury, 21 Sep 1920, born in Camberwell, Victoria (suburban Melbourne)
Arthur George Westbury, 26 Nov 1921 born in Colac, Victoria (country Victoria - between Warrnambool and Melbourne)
Hugh Victor Westbury, 9 Nov 1920, born in Irrawarra (near Colac)
Lindsay Gordon Westbury (as mentioned above), 26 Feb 1908, born in Cobden

WWI:
Charles Arthur Westbury, born in Cobden, next of kin Mary Ann Westbury
?? Cyril Henry Westbury born in West Bromich, England, father George Westbury

I came across them in detail when I took the MOOC from Monash Uni on line through Future Learn. The course was very thought provoking in terms of input from participants as well.

Ah yes, I did that as well, although by that point I'd found most of the records on the sites I was quoting - mainly my grandfather's, but also his siblings, my grandmother's siblings, one of my father's cousins (the National Archives also have records for those still living), as well as my lost great-grand uncle as mentioned previously, his two half brothers etc. I just wish my other grandfather, who was in the Royal Navy, had the same type of records able to be found.
Luckily I have a couple of paper records that my mother had for my Royal Navy grandfather - including a service record, photos of each of the crews on each of his three "Ships", and a photo of the aircraft carrier he served on last. My Australian Army grandfather also left behind a memoir including a description of his war service, photos of his company, some of the places he'd served, including some he'd sourced himself from the government.

 

[Britjan]

So I couldn't resist doing this ........https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/7626820 and https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/7626824

 

[Bob Spiers]

Finally a little update on Daniel Jr's Australian wife Alice McLean. I am now reasonably certain she was the Alice McLean born Lanarkshire, Scotland in 1826 (from the Gorballs,Glasgow no less )

Shows you where being 'reasonably' certain leads as I think I might have to change my mind -nothing definite but further research points to Alice being a married McLean. I believe she may have been Alice Thompson (the one found guilty of pocket picking in 1843) who later married William McLean. One and the same William with whom she was jointly charged in 1847 - she with a felony and William an accessory after the fact. She was found guilty and sentenced to 7 years transportation and he was acquitted. (Reading the trial details I am of the opinion she committed the felony on his behalf, but might be wrong in that interpretation).

Of course William may have been her father or a cousin or uncle so I will check out some birth & marriage data before committing to this. That said, little else changes as she is still the same Alice Mclean transported to Australia although like Daniel, her marriage in VDL may have been bigamous. And I must also reserve judgement that she was Scottish although likely she was (and not just because of the surname) even though she certainly carried out her criminal activities in England.

 

[VTinOZ]

Many UK convicts, both male & female, transported to OZ were already married, many were later granted permission to marry in OZ.
I suppose because the possibility of ever returning to the UK was so slight if not impossible by the term of their sentence, or that their spouse would ever be able to afford to emigrate & then find them in OZ, an equally daunting task, the authorities decided that prior marriages were null after a period of 7 years.
So technically those people granted permission to marry were not considered to be bigamists.
I have seen a few applications for permission to marry refused on grounds of prior too recent marriage & then a later application approved, also some couples who 'lived in sin' until both were free, by servitude or pardon, & then found an obliging clergyman only too happy to bless their union.

I don't know about the fate of spouses left behind in the UK. Were they able to have the marriage dissolved or annulled, did they state they were widowed in order to remarry?