Convict brothers transported VDL -more information needed on one

[Bob Spiers]

Perhaps Alice had changed surname to WILLIAMS.
Hamilton was also a district in Tasmania
Alice McLEAN arrived per Elizabeth & Mary 11th Feb 1848.
From Ancestry, searched for event in 1873 for Alice Williams

Thanks VT - that certainly came as a complete surprise. I was still puzzling about whether she was born Thompson or McLean (two convictions at the Old Bailey as you know) and now Williams!

My first observation is to discover there is both an Hamilton and an Oaklands in Tasmania so am inclined to think it is the Tasmania Hamilton rather than the Victoria one.

My second relates to Margery's comments (which I will answer separately) suggesting perhaps the 'Hamilton as Williams' comment may NOT have related to Alice McLean. In a way I hope that proves to be the case but for the moment it was certainly affixed to Alice McClean, just as the Old Bailey 1848 McLean conviction cross referred to her committing an earlier offence in 1843 as Thompson.

Alice McLean was transported on the Elizabeth & Henry (not Mary) in February 1848 as you say and the same applies to Alice Williams apparently from the new information. That could be just administrative errors, but for the moment I will take them as read.

Meanwhile I must assume Daniel is no longer around and may well have died whilst serving his 5 year Larceny conviction at Cockatoo Island or shortly after release in 1859.

I think Alice lived in Wonderland (would make a good title for a book) and who knows what her next incarnation will be. I shall explore further.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Bob, just maybe this is not your Alice to which the last notation refers. I say this from experience as one of my husband's convict ancestors, who had a "colourful" career in VDL had such a notation on her convict record. As it was several years after her last offence, I wondered about it and another researcher suggested that it was a different person with a similar name. This appears to be the case.
I am unable to lay my hands on the record at the moment as all my FH material is packed up awaiting our house move on Friday week. (Guess that I could look it up on line though!)

Good luck with the house move, we have been helping my daughter with hers and whilst we can just up and leave, we left the pair quite traumatised having to get a new house ship shape and ready.

As I commented in my reply to VT -about what you say here - I hope in a way it proves to be the case. However, I have an uneasy feeling it is Alice either inventing a new name under which to be charged (hoping her past does not catch up with her) or a new marriage, given Daniel has departed the scene and a sufficient time interval had elapsed to allow a marriage. I will just have to explore further and see which proves to be the most likely.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Everyone else does have very valid points about the possibility it is in error, although the Australians are reasonably well know for correct information. It would be interesting to find out if there was a Daniel "Williams" at around the same time! There was also a suggestion earlier that it may not have been the first time that Alice has changed her name, truthfully or otherwise.

There are a couple of interesting "Williams" deaths in Victoria, some of which give "unknown" for names of parents. Who knows if that's a viable idea!

Yes will take up the trail about a Daniel Williams, and the 'William' deaths. If unable to locate may ask you to post a link.

 

[Bob Spiers]

My second observation is more of a puzzle: I came across the marriage of an Alice Inglis McLean in 1901 (to an Arthur James Pinney) in Victoria, Australia. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but the original Alice Mclean I found born 1826 in Glasgow Lanarkshire had parents John Mclean & Alice Inglis. I have since considered that birth information to be suspect (as Alice may have been born a Thompson and later married a Mclean), but supposing it was right, and add in the facts that our Alice WAS transported to Australia and forgetting for the moment she became a Westbury, perhaps Daniel died and Alice reverted to McLean?......

I think it likely this puzzle is resolved and against it being our Alice Mclean and likely renders her birth origin incorrect. I say this because I believe the marriage reference for an Alice Inglis McLean likely applies to a descendant of the McLean family that arrived Geelong, Australia as 'free' passengers aboard the 'Covenanter' ship arriving 23 January 1855. They were of Scottish descent and from Lanarkshire and amongst them was an Alice Mclean aged 27 (so c1828).

For my money it will be a descendant from this family named Alice Inglis McLean who married Arthur James Pinney in 1901. This is further bolstered by general references to (our) Alice either being from England, born c 1826 and certainly being convicted in England for offences that later earned her a transportation sentence.

This is not cast iron proof of course, but enough for me to pass on trying to tie her in to the marriage.

 

[Bob Spiers]

My last action was to contact nsw.gov.au (as VT suggested) via email on the subject of Cockatoo Island and asking if they have further information of any kind. Will see where that leads if anywhere.

Well it did finally and as VT predicted (sort of) they reminded that 'State Archives NSW does not offer a research service', so no surprise there. They provided a link that would, amongst other things, allow me to find 'organisations which can provide you with a list of professional members', which I will not be taking up.

More usefully they also provided a link to show me the records kept from Cockatoo Island - Records which looks to be the same or similar to the one provided by VT. Finally they said I was welcome to visit and search for myself or someone acting on my behalf and a link to 'plan-your-visit'...Kingswood, Sydney, NSW.

I have to say that although further research would be desirable, Daniel Westbury Jr - 'black sheep' ancestor and a third great uncle - has had more than enough time spent on him including the welcome input by Oz Forum members. This allowed research much deeper than I ever thought possible. To be truthful I am more pleased with the input received on George Frederick Sr (Daniel's brother, fellow convict turned good, and also a third great uncle) and his family. This is more or less complete.

I may continue a little longer researching on Daniel's other half - Alice McLean (aka Thompson, Williams) - not for any bloodline reasons as there aren't any, but just to satisfy curiosity. Otherwise this line of research is drawing to a close. Its been fun and I have to say I am impressed with resources available in Australia for genealogical research.

 

[jorghes]

I think you have done Daniel Westbury justice, giving him all the attention that you have. In the end, the trail just went cold.

Unfortunately I'm not completely surprised by the response you got, unfortunately some states are good, and others really are not. It's a shame that they haven't digitised those documents like some of the others you can find. (NSW is a bit in that manner when it comes to the historical birth and death certificates too. They give you a link to a transcription service, if you don't want to pay the $31.)

Perhaps one day someone from the forum might head in and have a look... I would, but I live in Melbourne, which makes it almost like a mini holiday to get up to Sydney. The only other way would be to try and get the microfilm copy. (Which might be possible from other genealogical institutions in Australia).

It would be interesting if you could find out what happened to Alice.
I often bemoan the lack of census records, which can occasionally frustrate me because it could be easier, but we more than make up for it with digitised and (now) free to search indexes for births, deaths and marriages. And of course, Trove. (And war records, that's a big winner)

 

[Bob Spiers]

It would be interesting if you could find out what happened to Alice.
I often bemoan the lack of census records, which can occasionally frustrate me because it could be easier, but we more than make up for it with digitised and (now) free to search indexes for births, deaths and marriages. And of course, Trove. (And war records, that's a big winner)

Thoroughly agree with all you say and can't begin to thank you and everyone for opening up records that are available, and as I've said before, Victoria records are tops, and of course Trove.

As for Alice, the song 'Alice where art thou?' comes to mind. Most probably because it was one of the songs my maternal grandfather George used to sing each year at the family Christmas party, whilst my mother accompanied him on the piano. One of his other songs was 'Come into the garden Maud'...so just awaiting research on a Maud!
(Happy memories. Granddad died when I was aged about 10).

 

[jorghes]

Thoroughly agree with all you say and can't begin to thank you and everyone for opening up records that are available, and as I've said before, Victoria records are tops, and of course Trove.

As for Alice, the song 'Alice where art thou?' comes to mind. Most probably because it was one of the songs my maternal grandfather George used to sing each year at the family Christmas party, whilst my mother accompanied him on the piano. One of his other songs was 'Come into the garden Maud'...so just awaiting research on a Maud!
(Happy memories. Granddad died when I was aged about 10).

I know how you feel with that, my grandfathers died when I was 5 and 12 respectively.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I know how you feel with that, my grandfathers died when I was 5 and 12 respectively.

Thanks, I never knew my other grandfather, he died 8 years before I was born. Both survived the Great War but Granddad Spiers had poor health because he suffered lung damage from gas inhalation in the trenches. Grandma had a marve!ous picture of him in her front room in army uniform and wearing gaiters. I have a copy in my tribal pages.

 

[Margery]

I never knew my other grandfather,

Well, I never knew any of my grandparents - or aunts, uncles, cousins, for that matter. My parents came to Australia as single people and actually had a ship board romance. After marrying in Oz. they did return for an extremely short time, returning here for the rest of their lives. I was my maternal grandparents only grandchild (my mother's siblings were childless) and, as a grandmother myself, I can imagine how my grandmother must have felt. What amazes me is the closeness of a large family my mother had, lots of aunts and uncles and cousins with whom she kept a lively correspondence yet we had this somewhat isolated, although happy, life. My mother's sister, then a widow, did visit Australia in 1957 for our wedding (yep, 60 years coming up!) and a second cousin, once removed did emigrate for his work. We kept in touch until his death last year and fortunately his children also keep in touch. I have been fortunate to make contact with several extended family mambers on our trips to UK.

 

[jorghes]

Thanks, I never knew my other grandfather, he died 8 years before I was born. Both survived the Great War but Granddad Spiers had poor health because he suffered lung damage from gas inhalation in the trenches. Grandma had a marve!ous picture of him in her front room in army uniform and wearing gaiters. I have a copy in my tribal pages.

My grandmother died at age 50, 18 years before I was born (due to depression) - we have quite a few photos of her; my granddad remarried luckily, but he died when I was 5 of a heart attack. My other grandfather died of Motor Neurone Disease when I was 12; about 4 years later, my grandmother lost her older brother to the same disease.
I have photos of both my grandfathers in their military uniforms - my granddad was in the British Navy, my grandfather in the Australian Army.

Well, I never knew any of my grandparents - or aunts, uncles, cousins, for that matter. My parents came to Australia as single people and actually had a ship board romance. After marrying in Oz. they did return for an extremely short time, returning here for the rest of their lives. I was my maternal grandparents only grandchild (my mother's siblings were childless) and, as a grandmother myself, I can imagine how my grandmother must have felt. What amazes me is the closeness of a large family my mother had, lots of aunts and uncles and cousins with whom she kept a lively correspondence yet we had this somewhat isolated, although happy, life. My mother's sister, then a widow, did visit Australia in 1957 for our wedding (yep, 60 years coming up!) and a second cousin, once removed did emigrate for his work. We kept in touch until his death last year and fortunately his children also keep in touch. I have been fortunate to make contact with several extended family mambers on our trips to UK.

My mother and her parents emigrated to Australia in the 1950s. My grandfather went back once, and his father died a couple of weeks later. My grandmother, who had depression, never went back home. Since my mother was born in the UK, her grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins had met her, but she's only met them as a adult twice. Once when she went over in the 1970s (or there abouts) and this year, when she and my father went over as a retirement trip - unfortunately, only one of her aunts/uncles is still alive now, not that there was ever many of them in the first place (my grandfather was the oldest of four, my grandmother had two sisters). I have met my mother's cousins once, last year when I finally went and visited my mother's family. Otherwise all contact has been in letters and phone calls.

My paternal great-grandfather emigrated to Australia in 1906 as a missionary to far North Queensland. He only got back once, when his church paid for his return in 1914, and that was the last time he saw his family. He then emigrated with his wife, who had been born in Rockhampton, QLD, to Victoria. Family stories are that his wife never saw her family again either (her father died in 1919). They did have quite large families that they had left behind though.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Once more dipping into research on Alice McLean I am a little out of my depth. Please look at this snippet under the heading Correspondence & Warrants in which Alice Mclean is shown with two names alongside: Marg Sinclain (possibly Sinclair) & Jemima Miller (ignore crossing out which is my own and relates to the item above).


The clipping is from 1848 as the second attachment reveals





I have tried to Google Correspondence & Warrants and seem to have come up with it applying to the legal (i.e. police) warrant to open certain people's mail. In this case Alice's. In Jan 1848 she would be awaiting transportation I feel sure, so she likely wrote to one or both ladies. I am not at all sure where that will lead but perhaps a bit like witnesses at weddings, the names may throw light on Alice, and goodness knows I need to know more of her background.

If she was born in Scotland (which I now doubt), I think she was brought up in London and certainly the area in which she grew up and committed her larceny crimes was London and a 'bad' part of London at that. In the account of her trial (originally provided by VTinOz) but can be found here the 'Blue Gate Fields area is mentioned which is of London and Dorian Gray fame....'some night he would creep out of the house, go down to dreadful places near Blue Gate Fields..." so we know she certainly mixed in bad company.

I have mentioned before about William McLean who was acquitted whilst Alice was sentenced to transportation and wonder where he fits into the story. Was he her -husband, father, brother, cousin etc and am currently embroiled (off and on) in tracking both of them down. (And remember in her 1843 conviction and sentence of 1 year imprisonment for Larceny she was charged as Alice Thompson which muddies the water somewhat as I can find no connection -marriage wise to a McLean).

If anyone has any thoughts on how I can use the Correspondence and Warrants information I will be pleased to hear.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I have quickly learned the simple fact that both Margaret Sinclair & Jemima Miller were given 7 year VDL transportation sentences. Both were sentenced in Edinburgh for different crimes (each one of theft) on different dates in 1847. (Alice's trial was at the Old Bailey, London). It is likely that they were all incarcerated pending being assigned a vessel and an embarkation date at the Millbank Detention Unit. I think the Correspondence & Warrants item merely recorded the fact they were all shipped out on the same vessel, which in Alice's case was the 'Elizabeth & Henry' in February 1848.

I am not sure if the Edinburgh reference is significant for Alice, although it may be another factor to consider she too may have been born in Scotland and later moved to England. I recall an earlier mention by someone of Edinburgh being spotted in Alice's Prison Records (which I was unable to find). Although I found a birth that fitted in Glasgow I have since had to rule it out, or at least put to one side. Perhaps I need to check if I can tie her in to Edinburgh, so back to the drawing board.

 

[VTinOZ]

I have quickly learned the simple fact that both Margaret Sinclair & Jemima Miller were given 7 year VDL transportation sentences. Both were sentenced in Edinburgh for different crimes (each one of theft) on different dates in 1847....

I am not sure if the Edinburgh reference is significant for Alice, although it may be another factor to consider she too may have been born in Scotland and later moved to England. I recall an earlier mention by someone of Edinburgh being spotted in Alice's Prison Records (which I was unable to find).

Edinburgh is stated as Native Place for Alice McLEAN on her convict record, arrived per Elizabeth & Henry in June 1848 (sorry I think I previously said Feb 1848)
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-17,176,101,L,58

Convict record for Jemima Miller WILSON (alias TEVIOTDALE), arrived per Elizabeth & Henry in June 1848
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-17,176,169,F,60

Convict record for Margaret SINCLAIR, arrived per Elizabeth & Henry in June 1848
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-17,176,135,F,60

So, yes, all 3 arrived VDL per Elizabeth & Henry in June 1848, so far nothing to say if they were previously acquainted.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Edinburgh is stated as Native Place for Alice McLEAN on her convict record, arrived per Elizabeth & Henry in June 1848

Thanks that's most helpful. I recall a mention of Edinburgh as a native place for Alice McClean, but as I said, that eluded me despite having scoured the convict record you sent on quite a few occasions. I clearly missed the headings or did not scroll far enough to pick up 'Edinburgh'.

Even so, I have tried to find a birth for an Alice McClean in SCOTLAND, never mind Edinburgh, using Ancestry, FMP & Scotlands People, and have come up empty handed using the criteria of her birth circa 1826 (+/- 2 years). Except for just one for 1826 in the Gorballs (Glasgow) Lanarkshire. That one fell by the wayside later but now I know Edinburgh is her native place (despite committing offences in England) I will persevere; but NOT necessarily looking for a McClean.

If, as the police suggested in 1848 she had been previously charged in 1843 as Thompson (age 19- spinster), and the one that earned her transportation in 1848 as McLean (age 21 -married) -I know the ages do not tally - it looks as though I have to search for the (much) more popular name of Thompson, in Edinburgh! I had tended to ignore 'Thompson' considering it an alias much as I did when she was charged in Australia as 'Williams'! At least I suppose I must be grateful I do not have to scour a Williams from Wales, as I indeed have experience of doing that a while ago for another ancestor; a proverbial needle in the haystack challenge.

 

[Bryman]

I have tried to find a birth for an Alice McClean in SCOTLAND, never mind Edinburgh, using Ancestry, FMP & Scotlands People, and have come up empty handed

McLean / McClean ??? Was that a typo in this discusion or was it a typo in the search?

 

[Bob Spiers]

McLean / McClean ??? Was that a typo in this discusion or was it a typo in the search?

Just me and a typo in the discussion I'm afraid. I've typed McLean so many times its small wonder my fingers merely added a 'c'.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I had made up my mind not to post any more, particularly about Alice McLean but this hand written extract from the top of her penal prison record (likely started after she arrived in VDL 30th June 1848) has me beaten for many reasons, not least that it records " Married 1 child"... (Marriage only inferred before and the first about a child). Can anyone come up with a coherent translation after "Larceny from the person (looks like)Gaol report 2nd conviction married 1 child stated this offence..." after this anyone's guess but I have tried and failed to come up with anything that makes sense and probably best I do not muddy the water by attempting further interpretations. Can anyone make coherent sense of the transcript, if so please put me out of my misery! Thanks.

 

[Pauline]

......... stealing a watch 12 mos for money single one child I never was married lived with a man 4 years surgeons report

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of punctuation but that seems to make sense.

 

[Bob Spiers]

and I nearly forgot this report of a tattoo on her arm. Does a wreath inside a heart indicate a death (as is likely) or perhaps a marriage, and more important was she born Alice "H"? (Every little helps)