Saving on heating bills

[Bob Spiers]

Budget hotels are now much cheaper than B&Bs (provided you book in advance), and often more comfortable.

And Amen to that as well and especially booking in advance. The so called Budget hotels (which I will not name as Peter refrains to do so) are the cheapest form of accommodation when one has to stay away from home overnight . It is the preferred choice for family/friends when visiting us (if we can't put them up) and always our choice when we visit them, and for the same reasons.

Living in a sea side town there are a choice of (very local) B&B's, and of course they have to make a living and charge accordingly. They are never the choice of people visiting so must make a living from the casual tourist who does not or cannot book ahead.

 

[peter]

So, from our experience, the most effective long-term solution to reduce humidity is to improve ventilation by opening windows regularly and to turn the thermostat up a notch. Dehumidifiers have their uses for shorter term issues, or where increased ventilation is impractical, but noise tolerance is a very personal thing and they are certainly not free to run. Also the idea that we can have complete control of the humidity levels in our homes at the touch of a button is a bit optimistic in practice.

Dehumidifiers are not free to run, but it's a much cheaper solution than opening the window because then you're letting warm air out and cold air in. Unless you have a very new or very small home it is likely to ventilate itself. However you ventilate there will be times when the air outside is damper than the air inside, for example when it is raining. A dehumidifier can control the humidity in your home provided it is powerful enough; you can't always control it by opening a window.

Until covid highlighted the benefits of fresh air, ventilation was becoming seen as un-green. Our boiler is a relatively new one and the user advice is that the heating should not be switched on until all windows and ventilators are closed and sealed. If you go with that advice in an overly humid home then a dehumidifier would be the only option (and probably why they have become more popular), but I couldn't live without ever opening the windows and letting some fresh air in.

The question to ask is how a home gets overly humid in the first place and, once you have the answer, deal with that problem. Opening windows and turning up the thermostat is a very expensive option and one that is bad for the planet.

Ventilation is still un-green. The pandemic has highlighted the importance of air circulation and ventilation when you are indoors with people from different households, but when you are with other members of your household it is largely irrelevant. If you want to check how well ventilated an indoor space is, use a CO2 meter.

 

[Bob Spiers]

A dehumidifier can control the humidity in your home provided it is powerful enough; you can't always control it by opening a window...Opening windows and turning up the thermostat is a very expensive option and one that is bad for the planet...The pandemic has highlighted the importance of air circulation and ventilation when you are indoors with people from different households, but when you are with other members of your household it is largely irrelevant. Ventilation is still un-green

I have highlighted the many points made by Peter, and have to say I do not agree with any of them; especially ventilation being un-green. I have already concurred with Pauline's comment about 'letting fresh air in' and 'turning up the thermostat and opening a window' as such behaviour(one or the other or both) is second nature for I am sure the majority of people here in the UK especially during the colder months of the year.

I (and I speak for my wife) can say from experience gained over the years living in varied accommodations -bed sits, flats, houses (rent and purchased), old, not so old and almost new - that is the way we went about things, and for the large part still do. (Give or take the odd experimentation with Humidifiers and that only came about because of medical advice, and similarly having a window slightly open at night).

True I can cite examples of people (mainly elderly) who do not like a house too warm, and even those who shun opening windows -nothing to do with saving the planet mind - just their own personal custom. A few years back we had an elderly widow lady living next door who was Canadian; she was in her 80's then. We noticed her windows were thrown open wide during the day and when we asked why, she told us she was following the sound medical advice of her Specialist, to breathe in fresh air (remember we live by the sea, and the air is fresh) but to always keep them shut at night. We called her the 'Duchess' because she used to invite us round for afternoon tea; (cucumber sandwiches and tea poured from a teapot into china cups). We found she compensated for the open windows with what would otherwise have been an uncomfortably heated environment, but the 'fresh air' made it strangely very cosy.

I am sure Peter bases his facts on professional and scientific advice and can quote chapter and verse. All I have to say to that is I know without a shadow of doubt, I could if I had the time and inclination, find advice to support the 'turn up the heat slightly, and open the window' doctrine. Saving the planet is a wonderful goal, but I think it best left to be sorted out at world level and then passed down for mortal compliances.

Others may disagree of course, but peacefully and not by gluing oneself to a motorway sideroad or chaining oneself to railings. Perhaps some will choose low thermostat settings, windows tightly shut, and cold weather clothing?

 

[peter]

Saving the planet is a wonderful goal, but I think it best left to be sorted out at world level and then passed down for mortal compliances.

That's known as a cop-out, Bob - it's why we're in this mess. I don't agree with the extremists or their tactics, but I can understand why they get frustrated when people like you pass the buck.

 

[Susan48]

Humidity can be a problem where people dry their laundry indoors on radiators and airers, with adverse consequences for both building and occupants. Our son experienced this a few years ago until I persuaded him to invest in a tumble dryer. But not everyone can afford to buy or run a dryer, or has space for one, or can dry clothes outdoors. Drying outdoors is the greenest option but not always possible.

 

[Pauline]

The question to ask is how a home gets overly humid in the first place and, once you have the answer, deal with that problem.

This is overly simplistic, and obviously we have already considered this question. However, with older properties sometimes the "problem" is simply down to the way the house was built, or maybe where it was built, and "dealing" with it is not cost-effective, if it's even possible.

Dehumidifiers are not free to run, but it's a much cheaper solution than opening the window because then you're letting warm air out and cold air in.

That very much depends on how much you spend on heating, how long the windows are open for and whether you would be opening them regularly anyway.

 

[peter]

Humidity can be a problem where people dry their laundry indoors on radiators and airers, with adverse consequences for both building and occupants. Our son experienced this a few years ago until I persuaded him to invest in a tumble dryer. But not everyone can afford to buy or run a dryer, or has space for one, or can dry clothes outdoors. Drying outdoors is the greenest option but not always possible.

As you say, drying laundry indoors on radiators and airers can have adverse consequences, but it's not always going to be a problem - it depends on the volume of laundry compared to the volume of the property, the ambient humidity, the level of natural ventilation, and the washing machine spin speed. Unfortunately most people don't own a hygrometer (even though they very cheap to buy), so by the time they realise there's a problem there are damp patches and mould.

When there's a problem with space the usual solution is a washer/dryer, though if you have a perfectly good washing machine already it's an expensive upgrade (stacking the dryer on top of the washing machine may be a low-cost alternative). And whilst drying laundry outside is greener you need space for that too - as well as wind, dry weather, a bit of luck, and a lot of time (there aren't many full-time house-husbands or house-wives these days).

 

[peter]

This is overly simplistic, and obviously we have already considered this question. However, with older properties sometimes the "problem" is simply down to the way the house was built, or maybe where it was built, and "dealing" with it is not cost-effective, if it's even possible.

I'm intrigued to know how old these so-called older properties are, since most of the houses I've lived in were built before 1900 and all of them were built before 1939.

That very much depends on how much you spend on heating, how long the windows are open for and whether you would be opening them regularly anyway.

Not really - the only circumstance in which opening the windows in the living area likely to be cheaper is when the heating isn't being used, or there is a big build-up of moisture as a result of leaving a kettle boiling. The dehumidifier that came top in the Which? survey uses 260W, so costs about 4p an hour when on. Which? recommend it for a large house, a smaller property would cost less.

 

[Bob Spiers]

That's known as a cop-out, Bob - it's why we're in this mess. I don't agree with the extremists or their tactics, but I can understand why they get frustrated when people like you pass the buck.

I am not so much concerned with cop-outs as cop-ins; those that come under such headings as: HEALTH, FAMILY, WELLBEING, and under sub-headings: INCOME, EXPENDITURE, PROPERTY, SECURITY, MOBILITY... (and likely other headings close to my heart and that of my wife). In other words matters we can effect and hopefully control. It does NOT extend to taking on the worlds problems, other than a degree of sympathy and understanding, and perhaps, just perhaps, electing the right people to take on the more serious world challenges. Life is short and I was taught, and believe, charity begins at home. If that is passing the buck -so be it.

 

[peter]

I am not so much concerned with cop-outs as cop-ins; those that come under such headings as: HEALTH, FAMILY, WELLBEING, and under sub-headings: INCOME, EXPENDITURE, PROPERTY, SECURITY, MOBILITY... (and likely other headings close to my heart and that of my wife). In other words matters we can effect and hopefully control. It does NOT extend to taking on the worlds problems, other than a degree of sympathy and understanding, and perhaps, just perhaps, electing the right people to take on the more serious world challenges. Life is short and I was taught, and believe, charity begins at home. If that is passing the buck -so be it.

Bob, you talk about the world's problems as if they're nothing to do with you - but when it comes to climate change it's everybody's problem. What you or I do - and what we say about the topic in public forums like this - makes a difference to everyone.

I don't have children or grandchildren but I don't like the thought that what I do - or fail to do - will make the world a worse place for your grandchildren, or anybody else's. We may not be around when things really start going wrong with the climate, but that doesn't give us the right to saddle the younger generations with a problem that by then may have no solution.

I freely admit that there is more that I could do - but at least I don't pretend it's not my problem.

 

[Pauline]

I'm intrigued to know how old these so-called older properties are

The actual age is not really what's relevant, it's older in the sense of not being recently built to more modern standards. It's more about how the property was built and often where, so an 18th century house may do better than a cheaply built 1950s house.

Not really - the only circumstance in which opening the windows in the living area likely to be cheaper is when the heating isn't being used, or there is a big build-up of moisture as a result of leaving a kettle boiling. The dehumidifier that came top in the Which? survey uses 260W, so costs about 4p an hour when on. Which? recommend it for a large house, a smaller property would cost less.

Well as I said, there are too many variables involved to make generalised assumptions like this, and you haven't factored in the cost of the dehumidifier itself. Even where there is some saving on heating costs, it may take several years to pay for itself and they don't always last that long. As with most things what works for one person won't necessarily be right for another. That's life!

 

[peter]

Well as I said, there are too many variables involved to make generalised assumptions like this,

There are certainly lots of variables involved, but there can still be some general principles to guide us.

and you haven't factored in the cost of the dehumidifier itself.

Indeed not - or the cost of the central heating boiler or the windows.

Even where there is some saving on heating costs, it may take several years to pay for itself and they don't always last that long. As with most things what works for one person won't necessarily be right for another. That's life!

I agree, people are different - we've seen that from this discussion, in which everyone thinks that their own way of doing things is the best. That's why we need scientists to evaluate the different options, and reliable media (such as Which? magazine) to publicise the findings. And also why we need to have an open mind - the way we've always done something might not necessarily be the best way, even for us.

None of us gets it right all the time, but some people change their behaviour in response to the evidence, whilst others fight tooth and nail for the right to continue making the same mistakes.

 

[Pauline]

Indeed not - or the cost of the central heating boiler or the windows.

Well, I appreciate you were just being facetious, but I was actually making a valid point. If we are going to judge the cost-effectiveness of an optional additional item, then both the capital outlay and the running costs are relevant.

Don’t forget I am speaking from experience. We bought a dehumidifier to use in a previous house, where damp and humidity were a much more significant issue than where we now are. We chose the Which? Best Buy, which had a very similar power rating to their current one, and while I can’t remember the exact noise rating, it was one of the quietest.

It had some temporary impact on the humidity issue, but there was no noticeable saving on heating costs. The general noise it made wasn’t an issue, although it did get noisier when working hard, but the problem was the underlying pulsating which reverberated through the house and made it impossible to use overnight as was recommended, and quite hard to tolerate at other times. Then as a final insult it stopped working just after the end of the guarantee period. So overall we were not impressed and felt it had been a waste of money.

(I notice from the Amazon reviews of the latest Which? Best Buy that some users are still raising the same issues on noise.)

 

[peter]

Well, I appreciate you were just being facetious, but I was actually making a valid point.

So was I - the more you use your boiler the sooner it'll need replacing.

It had some temporary impact on the humidity issue, but there was no noticeable saving on heating costs.

Surely the only reason the impact was temporary was because you stopped using it? You did say it was a Which? best buy.

Any saving on heating costs would be hard to discern because of variations in the weather, and you would also have to look at energy consumption rather than costs, because prices change and bills are often based on estimates. And it would need to be a like-for-like comparison - the dehumidifier presumably had an integrated hygrometer, but did you use a hygrometer previously and, if so, were you achieving the same low levels of humidity consistently? That would be challenging since there would have been times when the air outside was more damp than the air inside (on a rainy day, for example).

I can't comment on the noise but it's clearly something that different people experience differently, judging from the reviews at Amazon (and some people used it in their bedroom!). My wife finds the noise of our fridge annoying, I rarely notice it - but then we don't have a fridge in the bedroom unless we're staying in a hotel.

In any case, noise shouldn't be a major issue because there's no need to run a dehumidifier overnight - you presumably didn't throw the windows open in the middle of the night when you didn't have a humidifier?

 

[Bryman]

The only time that I have used a (rented) dehumidifier was when we doubled the size of a bungalow in South of England in 1980s. Concrete floors were laid and the pumice block walls were plastered so there was a lot of moisture to be removed without applying heat which might have caused cracking. We ran it 24 hours a day for a week or so and it did a very good job. It did not seem particularly noisy but then we were mainly living in the existing part of the house, particularly at night.

Varying heat requirements of central heating systems due to weather can be significant. I designed my own system based on a solid fuel gravity fed grains boiler and sized the radiators/boiler based on published degree day data and the insulation installed. The amount of insulation is by far the most important aspect to consider. Ventilation was controlled by opening/closing fanlights above windows.

When my wife and I moved to NZ, we had a new house built with underfloor heating using a large heat pump to provide warm water for the plastic pipes buried in the concrete floor slab. The heat pump heats the floor overnight using cheap rate electricity costing about 7p/kwh. That is a bit like having 14 night storage heaters in the floor and no wall-mounted radiators. It provides a dry environment which we have no need to humidify.

 

[Pauline]

Surely the only reason the impact was temporary was because you stopped using it?

We didn't get any choice, it stopped working (as I said) and in light of our experience we didn't feel inclined to splash out on another one.

were you achieving the same low levels of humidity consistently?

We never achieved low levels of humidity in that house.

Anyway, I suspect we may have bored people with this for long enough, so perhaps we should move on now.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Bob, you talk about the world's problems as if they're nothing to do with you - but when it comes to climate change it's everybody's problem. What you or I do - and what we say about the topic in public forums like this - makes a difference to everyone.

History teaches us many things, and one of them as aptly spoken by a character from Alan Bennett 'History Boys Play' is "History is one bloody thing after another". So hostilities, wars, plagues, pandemics, and yes global warming (to name but a few of the things that threaten or may threaten the future quality of living) will always be resolved by early steps taken by a current generation, or by lessons learned from both actions and inactions and overcome by generations that follow.

Actions follow the law of physics "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". Reactions are not always as intended (one has only to think of the early days of the Pandemic) and so require further actions. Sometimes inactions provide better solutions to allow problems to be better understood and lead on to actions that produce better results.

It is no use blaming this generation or that of our forefathers, grandparents and parents for the problems of today. It is merely history repeating itself. Some actions taken at the time were right, some wrong and some ignored when they shouldn't have been. Only history will decide who/what was right and who/what was wrong - and even then opinion will differ just as it did for those making decisions.

 

[peter]

It had some temporary impact on the humidity issue

Surely the only reason the impact was temporary was because you stopped using it?

We didn't get any choice, it stopped working

You said it stopped working after the warranty ran out - that would have been at least a year. A bit more than temporary, surely?

We never achieved low levels of humidity in that house.

Not even by opening the windows and turning up the boiler?

 

[peter]

It is no use blaming this generation or that of our forefathers, grandparents and parents for the problems of today.

For once you're right, because it's not about apportioning blame for what has happened in the past, it's about taking responsibility for what is going to happen in the future.

 

[Pauline]

Not even by opening the windows and turning up the boiler?

I didn’t say that we didn’t reduce the humidity - which we did by opening the windows regularly - only that we never achieved low humidity.