Looking for a birthplace of three brothers WALTON between 1793 and 1804

[JOSTURM]

In 1841, John is in Frog Lane, Islington with his children. Census ref. HO107/664, book 6, folio 14, p.22. It clearly says 'n' to 'whether born in county', whilst his children have 'y'. John had clearly been widowed by this point, but remarried in 1842. I discovered his daughter Georgiana married Benjamin Constable in 1848 and in 1851 the Constables are living in Shoreditch (with infant daughter) and with them is Mary A Walton 'sister in law' aged 6 - presumably a child of John's second marriage. I wondered why this child was staying with her sister if her parents were still alive?

I too couldn't find John in the 1851 census - was he definitely still alive at that point? Particularly given his young daughter Mary is living with her married sister?

Hi, John married Ann May nee Suett in 1842. Ann was the widow of Joseph May, brother of John's first wife Mary Ann snd Thomas's wife, Eliza. John and Ann had two children - Mary Ann in 1842/3 who died and in 1844, Marian Sarah. It is Marian Sarah who is living with her half-sister Georgiana Constable on the 51C.
We think Ann died in 1856 in Clapton Square. John's last address before Hackney Workhouse in 1859 was Amhurst terrace in Hackney. In March 1860, John was transferred as a Pauper Lunatic to Colney Hatch where he died on May 10th. His body was taken out and he was buried in Bow Cemetery. We think William died in Islington in 1856.

 

[JOSTURM]

Birthplaces in the 1841 census are not always that reliable, and just because someone said they were born in the county doesn't mean they necessarily were. And some people living in Middlesex who were born in London might say they were born in the county while others might say they were not.

The father John seems to have died before his son William's second marriage in 1838, but is his date of death known? Did he leave a will? If he did, it might take a fair bit of searching to identify which, if any, of the John Walton wills from the right time period could be his, but it may be one way of moving this search forward.

At least there is the reassurance from Thomas's freedom records that he was not an Alien nor the son of an Alien. So I guess that narrows down the possibilities a bit.

Hi - John Walton the father's date of death is not known. Nothing about him is known except that he had died by 1838 and was a baker.

 

[JOSTURM]

That pre-supposes that JOSTURM hasn't already done all the things mentioned in the masterclasses. Sometimes we can do all the right things and yet certain ancestors still elude us.

I shall take another look at the Masterclasses, thanks

 

[JOSTURM]

Thank you everybody for your advice and contribution.

 

[JOSTURM]

I know what Peter would say 'Read my masterclass' because that's what he has said to me about my inability to find my great, great grandfather's and three of his children's baptism records.
I've read it and read it but it has not helped.

where do i find the 'Masterclass' ?

 

[Helen7]

where do i find the 'Masterclass' ?

Try this link - or this one.

 

[peter]

There are links to all of my Masterclasses from the Subscribers Only page. Apart from the Baptisms Masterclass you might want to glance through Finding birth certificates as it covers similar ground and has been updated more recently.

 

[JOSTURM]

There are links to all of my Masterclasses from the Subscribers Only page. Apart from the Baptisms Masterclass you might want to glance through Finding birth certificates as it covers similar ground and has been updated more recently.

Thank you Peter

 

[Pauline]

I know what Peter would say 'Read my masterclass' because that's what he has said to me about my inability to find my great, great grandfather's and three of his children's baptism records.
I've read it and read it but it has not helped.

While I would tend to agree with Peter than it can benefit us all, no matter how experienced, to remind ourselves of the basics every now and then, when ancestors remain elusive we need to move beyond the basics to more advanced techniques.

I have a number of ancestors for whom no baptism has been found - and probably never will be - but for whom I have nevertheless been able to identify their parents and origins. Even if I had found a possible baptism I would likely still have needed to consult other records to confirm the connection.

 

[peter]

when ancestors remain elusive we need to move beyond the basics to more advanced techniques

The Masterclass acts as a checklist, providing structure and making sure that we haven't forgotten any of the things that you or I would regard as basics, but which others wouldn't necessarily think of. As I said earlier in the discussion:

It obviously can't tell you the answer, but it does explain why you haven't found the answer already - which is the first step towards actually finding it.

Advanced techniques like family reconstitution and DNA require a whole Masterclass (or a book) to themselves.

But my experience is that when people ask for help, whether on the forum or by emailing me directly, they usually haven't done the basic analysis. That's why my first question is always to ask whether they've worked through the Masterclass, and the second is to ask what conclusions they came to.

 

[Pauline]

Advanced techniques like family reconstitution

I'm not sure that I have generally considered family reconstruction to be an advanced technique, though perhaps it is, but of course it only works if your elusive ancestor was born relatively close to where he/she lived and worked.

It's a technique which is always worth trying, and I generally do, but it's not one I have had that much success with.

 

[Pauline]

I have also discovered two sisters - Eliza Jane Walton (who witnessed William's 1826 marriage in Clerkenwell and married there herself to George Saunders in 1827) and Emily Walton living in Charlton Place Islington in 41C aged 48 (with niece Eliza jane Saunders with her).

If you think Eliza Jane Walton and Emily Walton were sisters of your John, then (from this 1841 census entry) have you worked out how Maria Walton (wife of John Whiting) fits into the family?

It looks to me, despite a smudge, as though the first witness at Maria's marriage was a John Walton, and since this was 1809 it seems unlikely to be the brother John. Could it be the father John?

 

[Pauline]

Although you haven't said yet if you think Maria Walton might be another sister in this family, I did have a quick look for further information on her. It seems her husband, John Whiting, may have died in 1850 (Islington district, aged 66), and since I didn't spot a remarriage for Maria, it's possible she was the Maria Whiting who died in 1866 in the Clerkenwell district, aged 85.

I couldn't find this Maria Whiting in 1851 but I did find a possible 1861 census entry in Clerkenwell - RG9 197 Fo: 91 p: 46. The ages don't quite match up but the entry does include a birthplace.

So there are a lot of ifs and maybes here but there is at least a birthplace which you may feel is worth following up on.

 

[peter]

It's about time there was some feedback regarding the basic steps in the Masterclass. Unless I've missed it, nobody seems to have mentioned the possibility that the children didn't know where they were born, or that the name of the father shown on the marriage certificates is wrong (just because the same name appears on two marriage certificates doesn't make it right).

 

[Pauline]

Unless I've missed it, nobody seems to have mentioned the possibility that the children didn't know where they were born

That may be because, with this particular puzzle, since there was no specific birthplace to go on, it was perhaps somewhat academic.

I did mention that birthplaces in the 1841 census were not always that reliable, so even if the brothers knew exactly where they were born, it still only narrowed down the birthplace to either in Middlesex or not in Middlesex - which doesn't exactly narrow things down a lot!

But just to clarify things, if Maria should prove to be another sister, and if the information given above does relate to the right Maria, it doesn't mean that either she or her siblings were necessarily born in Richmond. But it might nevertheless provide a useful starting point.

 

[peter]

That may be because, with this particular puzzle, since there was no specific birthplace to go on, it was perhaps somewhat academic.

That's not the impression I got from the early part of the discussion.

 

[At home in NZ]

I couldn't find this Maria Whiting in 1851 but I did find a possible 1861 census entry in Clerkenwell - RG9 197 Fo: 91 p: 46. The ages don't quite match up but the entry does include a birthplace.

Found Maria Walton born in Richmond in 1782, baptised 16 Jun, father Benjamin, mother Ann.

 

[Pauline]

Found Maria Walton born in Richmond in 1782, baptised 16 Jun, father Benjamin, mother Ann.

I found this baptism, and initially thought it didn't really help much, but then I found that the father Benjamin, then of Islington, left a will proved 1839 PCC. In it he mentions his daughters Marya Whiting and Emela Walton, his "poor fatherless and motherless" great granddaughter Eliza Saunders, and his grandsons William and John Walton.

So Benjamin appears to be father of the Maria and Emily Walton mentioned above, and grandfather of the Eliza Jane Walton who married George Saunders. So is he also grandfather of the 3 brothers?

 

[Helen7]

I found this baptism, and initially thought it didn't really help much, but then I found that the father Benjamin, then of Islington, left a will proved 1839 PCC. In it he mentions his daughters Marya Whiting and Emela Walton, his "poor fatherless and motherless" great granddaughter Eliza Saunders, and his grandsons William and John Walton.

So Benjamin appears to be father of the Maria and Emily Walton mentioned above, and grandfather of the Eliza Jane Walton who married George Saunders. So is he also grandfather of the 3 brothers?

Great detective work, Pauline! If the 3 brothers were sons of Benjamin's son John who pre-deceased him, it would fit. It would be good to find John's and Emily's baptisms to support your hypothesis. The only other baptism to Benjamin and Ann in Richmond I can see is Elizabeth in 1781.

 

[At home in NZ]

I agree with Helen about Pauline's work, well done. I would have attempted it but knew from past experience that Pauline would likely do so.
It would now be nice to know what JOSTURM thinks.