Looking for a birthplace of three brothers WALTON between 1793 and 1804

[JOSTURM]

I know so much, but it is still a major major brickwall for me.

My 4th great grandfather was John Walton (b 1802-4 ? d 1860) a Gingerbread baker, Pastry Cook who lived in Islington and later Hackney, from approximately 1819 until his death. He had two elder brothers, Thomas (b 1793 d. 1836 at 98-100 Bishopsgate) Pastry Cook with Freedom of the City, and William(b 1796 d. 1850's) Gingerbread Baker. As both John and William had second marriages using the modern certificate format, we know that their father was John Walton, a Gingerbread Baker. We also know from the 1841 Census that John Walton (Junior) was not 'born in county' so not in Middlesex. John is missing from the 1851 Census. William is on the 1851 Census (but unbelievably has not birth locations for him and his family). Thomas, of course, died aged 43 in 1836, so thats no use.

With so much information, one would think I could find the church and location for the baptism of the three boys, but of course it could have been in any county in England.

If you have any advice, guidance or information, please let me know.

 

[At home in NZ]

If you have any advice, guidance or information, please let me know.

I know what Peter would say 'Read my masterclass' because that's what he has said to me about my inability to find my great, great grandfather's and three of his children's baptism records.
I've read it and read it but it has not helped.

 

[Pauline]

I assume you’ve checked Freedom records and any available company records?

 

[At home in NZ]

I assume you’ve checked Freedom records and any available company records?

I was doing some research earlier today to see if I could help. Unfortunately I cannot find any of the records referred to, the one and only likely 1841 census is almost illegible in Ancestry.
I have found Thomas's Freedom record but it doesn't have any information that can assist.

I was intrigued by the gap between the birth years of William and John. Is it possible that the John Walton son of Mary Walton of the Workhouse born 20 Aug 1805 and bap at St Leonard's Shoreditch is who you are looking for?

 

[Pauline]

I have found Thomas's Freedom record but it doesn't have any information that can assist.

Interesting, though, that his admission was by redemption rather than servitude or patrimony.

 

[JOSTURM]

I assume you’ve checked Freedom records and any available company records?

Thanks Pauline. Yes, Neither John or William or their father were liverymen of the Cook's Company, but Thomas was by redemption from 1830 to 1836 mainly because he had moved away from the family premises at No 2 Frog Lane in Islington to buy three properties at 98, 99 and 100 Bishopsgate where he opened his shop. he would have needed his Freedom to trade.

 

[JOSTURM]

Interesting, though, that his admission was by redemption rather than servitude or patrimony.

Thanks -
Yes, Neither John or William or their father were liverymen of the Cook's Company, but Thomas was by redemption from 1830 to 1836 mainly because he had moved away from the family premises at No 2 Frog Lane in Islington to buy three properties at 98, 99 and 100 Bishopsgate where he opened his shop. he would have needed his Freedom to trade.

 

[JOSTURM]

I was doing some research earlier today to see if I could help. Unfortunately I cannot find any of the records referred to, the one and only likely 1841 census is almost illegible in Ancestry.
I have found Thomas's Freedom record but it doesn't have any information that can assist.

I was intrigued by the gap between the birth years of William and John. Is it possible that the John Walton son of Mary Walton of the Workhouse born 20 Aug 1805 and bap at St Leonard's Shoreditch is who you are looking for?

Thanks - I'm sticking with the fact that on the 41C, it said John was born out of county (Middlesex), however, for William, it said he was born in county. I think the 1805 baptism is unlikely as we don't know if Shoreditch was a likely birthplace, nor if his mother was called Mary. Logically, I am looking for a Pastry Book/Baker father who had these 3 sons probably in the same place. The gap between 1796 and 1804 may well be explained by as yet unknown sisters.

 

[JOSTURM]

Interesting, though, that his admission was by redemption rather than servitude or patrimony.

Also interesting, that his Freedom gave him the Electoral Vote even before the Great Reform Act of 1832, as he was a property owner and I also have his will. His younger brothers were far less ambitious and well-off. i have an 1831 Newspaper article from the Middlesex Chronicle where all 3 brothers were prosecuted for beating up a defaulting renter at their property in Frog Lane.

 

[At home in NZ]

I'm sticking with the fact that on the 41C, it said John was born out of county (Middlesex), however, for William, it said he was born in county. I think the 1805 baptism is unlikely as we don't know if Shoreditch was a likely birthplace, nor if his mother was called Mary. Logically, I am looking for a Pastry Book/Baker father who had these 3 sons probably in the same place

Sorry but you are not quite making sense to me. How can you be looking for three born in the same place when one says he was born Middx and the other says not?
I cannot find the 1841 censuses for either of the two brothers.

 

[Helen7]

I cannot find the 1841 censuses for either of the two brothers.

In 1841, John is in Frog Lane, Islington with his children. Census ref. HO107/664, book 6, folio 14, p.22. It clearly says 'n' to 'whether born in county', whilst his children have 'y'. John had clearly been widowed by this point, but remarried in 1842. I discovered his daughter Georgiana married Benjamin Constable in 1848 and in 1851 the Constables are living in Shoreditch (with infant daughter) and with them is Mary A Walton 'sister in law' aged 6 - presumably a child of John's second marriage. I wondered why this child was staying with her sister if her parents were still alive?

John is missing from the 1851 Census.

I too couldn't find John in the 1851 census - was he definitely still alive at that point? Particularly given his young daughter Mary is living with her married sister?

 

[Pauline]

presumably a child of John's second marriage

John and his second wife Ann had a daughter Marian Sarah born & baptised in 1844, so I guess it was her.

I wondered why this child was staying with her sister if her parents were still alive?

Yes, I wondered that too. I'd hoped if I could find her in 1851 it might help locate her parents.

 

[Pauline]

Birthplaces in the 1841 census are not always that reliable, and just because someone said they were born in the county doesn't mean they necessarily were. And some people living in Middlesex who were born in London might say they were born in the county while others might say they were not.

The father John seems to have died before his son William's second marriage in 1838, but is his date of death known? Did he leave a will? If he did, it might take a fair bit of searching to identify which, if any, of the John Walton wills from the right time period could be his, but it may be one way of moving this search forward.

At least there is the reassurance from Thomas's freedom records that he was not an Alien nor the son of an Alien. So I guess that narrows down the possibilities a bit.

 

[peter]

I know what Peter would say 'Read my masterclass'

It obviously can't tell you the answer, but it does explain why you haven't found the answer already - which is the first step towards actually finding it.

 

[Pauline]

It obviously can't tell you the answer, but it does explain why you haven't found the answer already - which is the first step towards actually finding it.

That pre-supposes that JOSTURM hasn't already done all the things mentioned in the masterclasses. Sometimes we can do all the right things and yet certain ancestors still elude us.

 

[peter]

That pre-supposes that JOSTURM hasn't already done all the things mentioned in the masterclasses. Sometimes we can do all the right things and yet certain ancestors still elude us.

Not all questions can be answered. If they can be answered then the key to finding the answer should be in the Masterclass, and if they can't be answered the reason why they can't be answered should be in the Masterclass.

In this case there is no evidence from the discussion so far that JOSTURM has even read the Masterclass.

 

[Pauline]

In this case there is no evidence from the discussion so far that JOSTURM has even read the Masterclass.

True, but even if he hasn't, it doesn't mean he won't already have tried everything suggested anyway - particularly if he's an experienced researcher.

 

[peter]

True, but even if he hasn't, it doesn't mean he won't already have tried everything suggested anyway - particularly if he's an experienced researcher.

Even experienced researchers can forget to check everything, and that's evident from the discussion so far.

 

[peter]

In the days when there were far fewer LostCousins members, and I had the time to help individual members with their 'brick walls', I always started off by asking the member concerned what they had already checked, and what possibilities they had considered. Perhaps we should have a similar rule on the forum?

Otherwise we risk wasting our time making suggestions that have already been considered and either thoroughly investigated or dismissed for a good reason. Even worse, we might not state the obvious because we assume that the person asking for advice must have already considered it.

This is why Masterclasses are so important - they provide a framework for investigation. If our discussions on the forum are haphazard it doesn't set a very good example for the less experienced members who don't qualify for an invitation (but can read what we write).

 

[JOSTURM]

Sorry but you are not quite making sense to me. How can you be looking for three born in the same place when one says he was born Middx and the other says not?
I cannot find the 1841 censuses for either of the two brothers.

Hi, despite the fact that William Walton's 41C says he was born in county, I am sure this is a mistake, and that all three brothers were born out of county. I have also discovered two sisters - Eliza Jane Walton (who witnessed William's 1826 marriage in Clerkenwell and married there herself to George Saunders in 1827) and Emily Walton living in Charlton Place Islington in 41C aged 48 (with niece Eliza jane Saunders with her).