Convict brothers transported VDL -more information needed on one

[Bob Spiers]

I don't know about the fate of spouses left behind in the UK. Were they able to have the marriage dissolved or annulled, did they state they were widowed in order to remarry?

Thanks again VT and I have thought about the same thing and it would seem to make sense just as it appears to have done back in Australia, and when I have time will check this out.

Your comments that marriages were considered 'null and void' after 7 years is very interesting and explains why marriage permissions were forthcoming.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Westbury, George Frederick, born in Echuca Vic; Enlisted in World War I in Fremantle, next of kin (mother): Catherine Westbury. (the search itself gives you birth place, enlistment place, birthdate if they have it, and next of kin). with a digitised record

Thanks once again Jorghes. This is my George Frederick Westbury III ( born 1878 Echuca), the grandson of the GFW Sr convict Ancestor and son of GFW Jr -the lay preacher. GFW III's mother was indeed Catherine Westbury(nee Williams). Amazing information now coming in on grandchildren when I have barely tied up loose ends on their grandparents, and hardly started on parents.

- Westbury, John Lloyd Arthur, born in Carlton Vic, Enlisted in Perth, next of kin (mother) Catherine Eliza Westbury; also has a digitised record.

Yet another son of GFW Jr born 1896 Carlton, Melbourne and mother Catherine Eliza (Williams). I only have him as John Lloyd Westbury (did know of the second middle name). He survived WW1 and he and his wife (and two daughters) moved to South Africa. (Incidentally John Llloyd Westbury was a blood relative of a previous research contact (Beth) which is why I know about them emigrating to South Africa)

Will comment on your other finds separately.

 

[Bob Spiers]

George Henry Westbury, 21 Sep 1920, born in Camberwell, Victoria (suburban Melbourne)
Arthur George Westbury, 26 Nov 1921 born in Colac, Victoria (country Victoria - between Warrnambool and Melbourne)
Hugh Victor Westbury, 9 Nov 1920, born in Irrawarra (near Colac)
Lindsay Gordon Westbury (as mentioned above), 26 Feb 1908, born in Cobden

Sorry these too far ahead of my research, almost certainly related but to whom I do not know as my research concentrates only on those born 19th Century and perhaps a little into (very) early 20th. I have for instance come across the name Lindsay Gordon Westbury but not shown in my Tree but likely will find in in my notes.

Thanks anyway

 

[Bob Spiers]

WWI:
Charles Arthur Westbury, born in Cobden, next of kin Mary Ann Westbury
?? Cyril Henry Westbury born in West Bromich, England, father George Westbury

Both these have me stumped, especially the latter one born West Bromwich but no dates to play with. Will have to pass on both for the time being. Something may strike a chord later.

 

[Bob Spiers]

So I couldn't resist doing this ........https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/7626820 and https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/7626824

Thank you Britjan, have checked both out and I do have additional information but not the time at the moment to provide the necessary substantive proofs required.

[1] GFW's birth was not as late as 1882, indeed at enlistment on 12/04/1916 he gave his aged as 36 & 8/12. If we advance him to 37 in August 1916 this equates to a birth year of 1879. I have 1878 but would certainly concede one year but not later that 1879. My information records his death to be 4th August 1941 in Subiaco, Perth, WA
[2] JLW, I have his birth year as 1896 in Carlton, Melbourne and would not contest 1895. I am aware after emigrating to South Africa (see a previous posting) he died in Johannesburg in 1958.

These facts are believed to be accurate but early days for me to have all the sources verified.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Thank you to all who have pointed me in the direction of WW1 service when trying to trace my elusive Daniel Westbury Jr. I would just remind that Daniel was born 1817 and with the best will in the world even if he had lived to a ripe old age would not even qualify for the Crimean wars, never mind the first world war.

As for descendants they will all be at Grandchildren level. Not that I know of any children, yet alone grandchildren for Daniel. But his brother George Frederick had grand children a plenty, many of which I have yet to discover, which is why to date I can only identify two but propose to search for others in due time.

 

[Bob Spiers]

As you're in England perhaps an email to there might be useful... the records aren't digitised but some are on microfilm/fiche so if you give the reference numbers you never know they may offer something useful,or they could just say it costs ?? for them to look.

Have done that VT and await to hear and fingers crossed the cost not too prohibitive, otherwise back to the drawing board.

 

[jorghes]

Thanks once again Jorghes. This is my George Frederick Westbury III ( born 1878 Echuca), the grandson of the GFW Sr convict Ancestor and son of GFW Jr -the lay preacher. GFW III's mother was indeed Catherine Westbury(nee Williams). Amazing information now coming in on grandchildren when I have barely tied up loose ends on their grandparents, and hardly started on parents.

Yet another son of GFW Jr born 1896 Carlton, Melbourne and mother Catherine Eliza (Williams). I only have him as John Lloyd Westbury (did know of the second middle name). He survived WW1 and he and his wife (and two daughters) moved to South Africa. (Incidentally John Llloyd Westbury was a blood relative of a previous research contact (Beth) which is why I know about them emigrating to South Africa)

Will comment on your other finds separately.

We like to try and find information as much as we can.

With your Daniel Westbury, I keep wondering if he adopted another name, perhaps to escape his past (his "wife" was very fond of different names). The other possiblity I thought of was that even if he didn't emigrate back to the UK, perhaps he emigrated to New Zealand or something like that (which might explain why we can't find him in any Australian death records).

Even with a quick trawl through the birth records (looking for a child of Daniel and Alice), there doesn't seem to be any children! Which is a shame, because it may have given an idea as to where they were. Also had a quick look for a death record for an Alice Westbury, in Victoria, Tas and NSW, and no luck there either!

 

[Bob Spiers]

We like to try and find information as much as we can.

With your Daniel Westbury, I keep wondering if he adopted another name, perhaps to escape his past (his "wife" was very fond of different names). The other possiblity I thought of was that even if he didn't emigrate back to the UK, perhaps he emigrated to New Zealand or something like that (which might explain why we can't find him in any Australian death records).

Even with a quick trawl through the birth records (looking for a child of Daniel and Alice), there doesn't seem to be any children! Which is a shame, because it may have given an idea as to where they were. Also had a quick look for a death record for an Alice Westbury, in Victoria, Tas and NSW, and no luck there either!

Well allowing you are ahead of me by quite a way and have the Oz knowledge to do so, I too have exhausted most if not all the sources I have or know about thanks to you and others trying to find out more about Daniel. My last action was to contact nsw.gov.au (as VT suggested) via email on the subject of Cockatoo Island and asking if they have further information of any kind. Will see where that leads if anywhere.

Two observations on Alice: the first just rules out a death for an Alice Ann Westbury 1913 Hobart, Tasmania. At no time have I come across Alice with a middle name and for the moment this is on my extremely doubtful list. (Our Alice would be about 87 at that time by the way).

My second observation is more of a puzzle: I came across the marriage of an Alice Inglis McLean in 1901 (to an Arthur James Pinney) in Victoria, Australia. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but the original Alice Mclean I found born 1826 in Glasgow Lanarkshire had parents John Mclean & Alice Inglis. I have since considered that birth information to be suspect (as Alice may have been born a Thompson and later married a Mclean), but supposing it was right, and add in the facts that our Alice WAS transported to Australia and forgetting for the moment she became a Westbury, perhaps Daniel died and Alice reverted to McLean?

After that it is pure guesswork but somewhere down the line a descendant - by 1901 certainly a Granddaughter - was given the name Alice Inglis Mclean so what can be made of that? Answers on a postcard please.

 

[jorghes]

Well allowing you are ahead of me by quite a way and have the Oz knowledge to do so, I too have exhausted most if not all the sources I have or know about thanks to you and others trying to find out more about Daniel. My last action was to contact nsw.gov.au (as VT suggested) via email on the subject of Cockatoo Island and asking if they have further information of any kind. Will see where that leads if anywhere.

Two observations on Alice: the first just rules out a death for an Alice Ann Westbury 1913 Hobart, Tasmania. At no time have I come across Alice with a middle name and for the moment this is on my extremely doubtful list. (Our Alice would be about 87 at that time by the way).

My second observation is more of a puzzle: I came across the marriage of an Alice Inglis McLean in 1901 (to an Arthur James Pinney) in Victoria, Australia. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but the original Alice Mclean I found born 1826 in Glasgow Lanarkshire had parents John Mclean & Alice Inglis. I have since considered that birth information to be suspect (as Alice may have been born a Thompson and later married a Mclean), but supposing it was right, and add in the facts that our Alice WAS transported to Australia and forgetting for the moment she became a Westbury, perhaps Daniel died and Alice reverted to McLean?

After that it is pure guesswork but somewhere down the line a descendant - by 1901 certainly a Granddaughter - was given the name Alice Inglis Mclean so what can be made of that? Answers on a postcard please.

I think that your supposition considering Alice McLean is a good theory. Perhaps the marriage certificate of her to Arthur James Pinney might give some ideas about where Daniel may have died (if he did), but if there is a death certificate for Alice Inglis Pinney, that would probably give more information again. Who knows!

 

[Bob Spiers]

I think that your supposition considering Alice McLean is a good theory. Perhaps the marriage certificate of her to Arthur James Pinney might give some ideas about where Daniel may have died (if he did), but if there is a death certificate for Alice Inglis Pinney, that would probably give more information again. Who knows!

Thanks again Jorghes and I will certainly follow through on all that.

What I also want to say is a big thank you to you and VT and in fact all who have assisted me in this Australian quest which started out to find out something about Daniel Westbury and his wife (both serving transportation sentences). I received a positive flood of information and learned Daniel had transgressed yet again after serving his original sentence, and of the offences Alice had committed to earn her own transportation. True much of what happened to Daniel & Alice still eludes me, but I know so much more now than when I started; all thanks to the Forum and its antipodean members.

But best of all when I though I had a fair bit of information on his brother George Frederick Westbury Sr, (also transported to Australia), twice married with possible extra marital relationships and siring an unbelievable 21 children, I learned he had only married once with 8 children and moved from Warrnambool to Cobden. The (so called) second marriage producing 9 children was actually that of his same named son GFW Junior. Then to cap it all I was able to discount 4 additional children as belonging to another George Westbury who lived in the north of Victoria.

Then I learned GFW Jr was a travelling lay preacher & Sunday School Superintendent(bringing a little respectability to the family) and that he too had named one of his sons George Frederick (GFW III) who, with other siblings and cousins served their country and the mother country in World War one. A positive treasure house of information for which I am truly grateful.

 

[VTinOZ]

Two observations on Alice: the first just rules out a death for an Alice Ann Westbury 1913 Hobart, Tasmania. At no time have I come across Alice with a middle name and for the moment this is on my extremely doubtful list. (Our Alice would be about 87 at that time by the way).

Alice Ann Westbury died 1913, age 61, was wife of a George Andrew Westbury who died in 1888 aged 46 years.
So I think your right Bob, that Alice is NOT Daniel's Alice

 

[Margery]

Sunday School Superintendent(bringing a little respectability to the family

Not necessarily, Bob. My husband's great uncle was a Sunday School teacher but that didn't stop him from running away with his daughter's school teacher, changing his name and creating a whole new family. The family covered up his disappearance by saying that he had died while doing missionary work with the Aborigines in Central Australia! (That is but one of the family myths that I have uncovered!).

 

[Bob Spiers]

Not necessarily, Bob. My husband's great uncle was a Sunday School teacher but that didn't stop him from running away with his daughter's school teacher, changing his name and creating a whole new family. The family covered up his disappearance by saying that he had died while doing missionary work with the Aborigines in Central Australia! (That is but one of the family myths that I have uncovered!).

Touché Margery and the point is well taken. I think I just added 'respectability' after wading through his uncle Daniel's multiple transgressions, not to mention those of his Aunt Alice. It just seemed appropriate to find someone heaven bent (hell bent would not be appropriate) for a change. Mind you I did waver myself when I thought he may be responsible for the 4 additional Westbury but was sort of relieved to find it was a different George Westbury entirely.

I agree families create Myths to cover up all sort of things like infidelities, unexplained absences and they tend to stick over time. I'm not sure it counts for a 'Myth' but I think I have mentioned before my wife growing up and being told her maternal grandfather had left home leaving her grandmother with 3 children and never came back. In truth he fought in WW1 and was killed at Aubers Ridge in 1915. I think I passed on that news in the 1990's when she was mid 40's herself.

 

[Bob Spiers]

This is a notation at the foot of Alice McLean's convict record . The first line is clear 'Sentence completed 25 August 1860' and understandable. But the second line whilst appearing equally clear and saying (I believe) June 18th 1873 ...Hamilton as Williams. Larceny. 3 mos (months) H.L. (Hard Labour) I just do not know what to make of the words shown in Bold.

Perhaps the name of a Shop/premises where the Larceny took place which is the best I can come up with. Anyone have other ideas? Neither Hamilton or Williams has any reference to Alice, who would have been Alice Westbury after 1850, but her convict records remains in her maiden name

 

[Tim]

There is a Hamilton in Victoria.

 

[VTinOZ]

View attachment 1123This is a notation at the foot of Alice McLean's convict record . The first line is clear 'Sentence completed 25 August 1860' and understandable. But the second line whilst appearing equally clear and saying (I believe) June 18th 1873 ...Hamilton as Williams. Larceny. 3 mos (months) H.L. (Hard Labour) I just do not know what to make of the words shown in Bold.

Perhaps Alice had changed surname to WILLIAMS.
Hamilton was also a district in Tasmania
Alice McLEAN arrived per Elizabeth & Mary 11th Feb 1848.
From Ancestry, searched for event in 1873 for Alice Williams



Then there is also this one

 

[Margery]

notation at the foot of Alice McLean's convict record

Bob, just maybe this is not your Alice to which the last notation refers. I say this from experience as one of my husband's convict ancestors, who had a "colourful" career in VDL had such a notation on her convict record. As it was several years after her last offence, I wondered about it and another researcher suggested that it was a different person with a similar name. This appears to be the case.
I am unable to lay my hands on the record at the moment as all my FH material is packed up awaiting our house move on Friday week. (Guess that I could look it up on line though!)

 

[jorghes]

View attachment 1123

This is a notation at the foot of Alice McLean's convict record . The first line is clear 'Sentence completed 25 August 1860' and understandable. But the second line whilst appearing equally clear and saying (I believe) June 18th 1873 ...Hamilton as Williams. Larceny. 3 mos (months) H.L. (Hard Labour) I just do not know what to make of the words shown in Bold.

Perhaps the name of a Shop/premises where the Larceny took place which is the best I can come up with. Anyone have other ideas? Neither Hamilton or Williams has any reference to Alice, who would have been Alice Westbury after 1850, but her convict records remains in her maiden name

I would read "Hamilton as Williams" as that she was in Hamilton, Victoria (quite easy really to write in a Tasmania convict record if Tasmania was under Victorian administrative control - not sure when that ended), using the surname Williams, when she was caught for seemingly her favourite crime, larceny.

Everyone else does have very valid points about the possibility it is in error, although the Australians are reasonably well know for correct information. It would be interesting to find out if there was a Daniel "Williams" at around the same time! There was also a suggestion earlier that it may not have been the first time that Alice has changed her name, truthfully or otherwise.

There are a couple of interesting "Williams" deaths in Victoria, some of which give "unknown" for names of parents. Who knows if that's a viable idea!

 

[Bob Spiers]

Can I just say with this new episode about an Alice Williams (thanks VT) I was out for most of yesterday and when I returned I used my Tablet to see if I had any alerts and discovered VT's posting just before retiring for the night. It took me a good hour to get to sleep thinking of its implications, and so now at my desk (well for a while) I will catch up on what others say and then post replies. Meanwhile thanks everyone.