Whatever happened to Fred Llewellyn?

[Bob Spiers]

Bob not sure if you know this..... The T M Hardie who was the informant on Frederick's birth certificate was the Infirmary Master at the hopital/workhouse at 99 Dudley Rd.

Yes I did Heather, but worth the reminder just in case. Thanks

 

[Bob Spiers]

Since my Dad was illegitimate and put into foster care by Barnardo Homes, I guess he would have been considered "deserving".

In my research into the Birmingham based 'Middlemore Emigration Homes' (founded by John Throgmorton Middlemore (and what a great name that is) in 1870), I came across the following reference to Barnardos.

"...Middlemore was influenced [by others and] particularly by Thomas John Barnardo, who, through various organisations, was already finding homes for his boys throughout the Old Commonwealth". However it was only in 1882 that the first official party of Barnardo boys arrived in Canada, ten years after the first party of Middlemore children".

There would have been a fair few child emigration parties leaving for Canada after that time (apart from First World War years) and certainly up until 1926 when the Canadian Government began to place limitations on child emigration; after that the emphasis switched to Australia.

Would he have been in the M.M. at the age of 17 when he came to Canada? Perhaps he jumped ship. .

Yes quite likely he would have been a Merchant Marine having undergone seamanship training, and likely as an Apprentice 'out of time' (a 3-year apprenticeship) he would have been issued his seaman papers. Perhaps he signed on as crew on a ship destined for Canada. Whether he jumped ship or not would depend on his terms of service as a crewman. If he was bound like other trade ex apprentice Journeymen to serve a specific service term, then yes he probably did. But he might not have been subject to such terms, and free to leave as it were.

 

[Britjan]

Judging by the records for Canadian sailors during WWI it's quite likely that Fred was apprenticed as a teenager. If you know the ship he served on I'll ask some of my online naval expert friends if it's one they followed post WWI .

 

[Bob Spiers]

Judging by the records for Canadian sailors during WWI it's quite likely that Fred was apprenticed as a teenager. If you know the ship he served on I'll ask some of my online naval expert friends if it's one they followed post WWI .

Thank you for that Britjan, but I think things have got muddled since I first posed the question of how my Fred Llewellyn reached Canada as an 'emigration child' aged 13 and returned aged 17 1/2 (which I do not believe had anything to do with him being a sailor) and the follow up question posed by Canadianbeth ....

Her emigration form lists her next of kin as her brother, at the National Sea Training Houses in Walllaby? He then allegedly came in 1925 at the age of 17 but I have no information on how he got here

He was the one who was conjectured to be a Merchant Marine sailor, so perhaps canadianbeth might wish to take advantage of your kind offer. But thanks anyway.

 

[Lana]

Hi

My first post so I hope this is okay.

I am not sure if this is going to help but I love newspaper archives so I had to search for the name on Find My Past. I think the first entry must be worthy of further investigation given that this Frederick is in the same age range and adopted.

Birmingham Mail 09 November 1915

A certificate, with a donation of £1, was granted to George Houghton (16) 146 Lodge Road, Birmingham. labourer, for rescuing Frederick Llewellyn (4), adopted son of Noah and Ada Welch, 4, back Tudor Street. on August 31st, who had fallen into the canal near Winson Green Road, while playing on the canal side, and was unconscious when rescued.

Taken from https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl/0000644/19151109/126

Birmingham Daily Gazette 22 June 1922

Falling from a canal bridge on to the towing path, Frederick Llewellyn, aged 13, of 4 back of 22, Trinity-street, Winson Green received a concussion and was removed to the General Hospital.

Taken from https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl/0000669/19220622/038

It seems people with the name Frederick Llewellyn should stay away from canals as there was another one - aged 7 in Bloxwich - Birmingham Daily Post 19 June 1917
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl/0000033/19170619/161

 

[Bob Spiers]

My first post so I hope this is okay.

I am not sure if this is going to help but I love newspaper archives so I had to search for the name on Find My Past. I think the first entry must be worthy of further investigation given that this Frederick is in the same age range and adopted.

First of all welcome to the Forum Lana, and I can tell you first off -without so much as a doubt - that the information provided by your post is nothing short of brilliant. Nothing to do with Frederick aged 4 (and seemingly again aged 13) and their canal accident incidents (remarkably though they are) but the information conveyed that he was the adopted son of Noah & Ada Welch. That information is priceless, and would not be obvious to anyone other than myself, because that couple (Ada was a 'bloodline' family member) and a descendant of another adopted son of theirs was the reason I undertook the 'Frederick Llewellyn' quest in the first place. It may well be a final piece of a jigsaw.

Too early and far too convoluted to explain further at this time, but suffice to say I am extremely grateful for the information, as will be the family member involved. I will try to explain how the information helped at a later date when I have time to take it in and confer with family. But thank you again for alerting me to the canal incidents and his adopted parents.

 

[Lana]

couple (Ada was a 'bloodline' family member)

She is Ada Rogers? There was a Rogers who married a Llewellyn but then when I tried to find them in the 1911 census I first stumbled upon a Minne Llewellyn with 3 young children - and it seems someone wasn't sure the name of the 'head' of the house as he was added on after. And although only 30 they had been married for 18 years.
I did get worried about Frederick Rogers though but he was 2 in 1911. But bit hard to muddle up Rogers and Llewellyn.

 

[Bob Spiers]

She is Ada Rogers? There was a Rogers who married a Llewellyn but then when I tried to find them in the 1911 census I first stumbled upon a Minne Llewellyn with 3 young children - and it seems someone wasn't sure the name of the 'head' of the house as he was added on after. And although only 30 they had been married for 18 years.
I did get worried about Frederick Rogers though but he was 2 in 1911. But bit hard to muddle up Rogers and Llewellyn.

Its a very long story concerning two Fred's - one Rogers (the principal one about which much is known) and the other Llewellyn (born two years apart) whose connection was not known so I was asked to help. It is my cousin's cousin's family rather than my own but I am now close to being able to explain things to them. It does indeed concern a marriage and an adoption tie in, but much much more and in time I am sure I will make a good story which I intend to write.

The information that the two Fred's were both tied to the Welchs - if not the final piece of the jigsaw - explained much. So the only real grey area now is mapping out Fred Llewellyn's life after he returned from Canada, and that in some ways is a secondary matter as the my primary goal was to find out the connection.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Lana]

With no Censuses available I turned to the 1939 Register and there struck gold, or thought I did, for I found a Frederick E Llewellyn (FEL) (my Frederick had no middle initial, or at least not given at birth), with the same birth date, married and living in Southend on Sea, in Essex.

Whilst still pondering whether they were one and the same I spotted a marriage annotation against his wife Phoebe Llewellyn, showing she became Mrs McDonald in October 1945. So, inevitably, given wartime, presumed FL had died, and likely had been a casualty of war?

Is there any evidence Frederick and Pheobe were married? I can't find anything on FreeBMD (I looked for Fred/Frederick Llewellyn marrying any Phebe / Pheobe)

Pheobe Llewellyn appears to have married Joseph McDonald - Marriages Sep 1945 (Southend) which fits in with the date quoted in the 1939 register.

I suspect she died in 1981 - can't find a will.

Phoebe McDonald
Birth 29/11/1906
Death 09/1981 Southend on Sea Essex England

FreeBMD doesn't seem to think there are any children from this Llewellyn McDonald marriage.

If Pheobe and Frederick weren't married then Pheobe would have been free to do as she pleased so we can't presume FL died before 1945? Seems strange to marry with the name Llewellyn though.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Is there any evidence Frederick and Pheobe were married?

Providing the Frederick E Llewellyn with the same birth date as my Frederick Llewellyn are one and the same, then yes Frederick and Phoebe married in 1930 at Rochford Essex. They had one daughter in 1931 who died at or shortly after birth, and a Robert T Llewellyn in 1943. Phoebe was able to remarry as McDonald in 1945 in Southend. I reasoned of course that Frederick must have died, likely a war casualty, but after intensive research and a few false leads, everything came to a dead end, if you pardon the pun. Phoebe (now) McDonald died in 1981 but the grey area I spoke about is both the addition of a middle name for Frederick (or rather an initial E) and his whereabouts returning (if the same Frederick) to his birth town of Birmingham. Hence a grey area in so many respects.

However the two Birmingham leads that see seem viable are (a) Frederick Llewellyn (no middle initial) in 1945 Electoral Register (in the right family area) and (b) the Frederick E Llewellyn who died in 1958, interred in Witton Cemetery,Birmingham; the same cemetery used by other Rogers/Llewellyn family members.

That is a mere snapshot summary and the 'grey' area will continue to occupy me, even though I am close to winding up the original purpose of my investigation..."to find the Rogers/Llewellyn connection".

 

[A. Muse]

I have just seen a post elsewhere on the forum regarding 'Civilian deaths in WW2' on Ancestry and is said to include deaths at sea (it certainly includes some). This information appears to come from CWGC.
I checked Ancestry for a second cousin who died when his ship (Fort Concord) was sunk and got no results, however the GWGC website shows his death, name of ship and details of the Tower Hill MN memorial.
Just proves that the nearer you can get to the source of the information the better the results. Hopfully you have already checked the CWGC site for Fred and not just Ancestry.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Hopfully you have already checked the CWGC site for Fred and not just Ancestry.

Gosh Mr Muse a follow up response to something written about 18 months ago. I had all but forgotten the subject of my posting, although after all the work I put in to resolve the matter, it soon came back to me. I thank you for your contribution and you will be pleased to know my Fred Llewellyn/Rogers mystery, has long been resolved, and put to bed.