Truth or Fiction?

[Bob Spiers]

Quick follow up I believe Alice Jarman (1855) and single was likely an Assistant Lodging House Keeper (perhaps a Concierge) working for her mother Rebecca Jarman - a widow 1833 in the 1901 Census - described as a Lodging House Keeper in Ramsgate...and the telling 'living on own means' Strange family not involved in acting as a death informant, but not that unusual either for someone living in Lodgings.

Edit: I note the death was attested by a Surgeon (MRCS) and not just an MD. Clearly George was not in hospital when he died.

 

[At home in NZ]

Quick follow up I believe Alice Jarman (1855) and single was likely an Assistant Lodging House Keeper (perhaps a Concierge) working for her mother Rebecca Jarman - a widow 1833 in the 1901 Census - described as a Lodging House Keeper in Ramsgate...and the telling 'living on own means' Strange family not involved in acting as a death informant, but not that unusual either for someone living in Lodgings.

Edit: I note the death was attested by a Surgeon (MRCS) and not just an MD. Clearly George was not in hospital when he died.

Nobody has mentioned a Coroners report, or am I being naïve to think there could have been one?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Nobody has mentioned a Coroners report, or am I being naïve to think there could have been one?

Yes clearly there would have had to be a Coroner's Inquest had an incident taken place and death the result by person or persons unknown. However as the illness given on his Death Certificate (Hemiplegia) seems to have begun some 49 days previous (so around mid October) unless it was the result of an attack, and known to the police and indeed picked up by the media for a report to be found, then, on reflection, it seems the more likely his death was the result of natural or accidental cause. These include (but may not be limited to) Stroke; Infection; Tumour or Head Trauma perhaps following a fall.

Curiosity remains so will continue further informal research as time affords. For now I lean towards natural cause but am interested to get to the bottom of how the rumour that he was murdered began.

 

[Tim]

Perhaps he fell on the steps of a bank? We are presumably assuming that bank refers to a building where money transactions are conducted and not a river bank?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Perhaps he fell on the steps of a bank? We are presumably assuming that bank refers to a building where money transactions are conducted and not a river bank?

Well given how rumours start, yes it could be a river bank, but the wording surrounding the rumour goes on to say..."steps of his bank" and clear reference to him being a Bank Manager. He was only shown as a Bank Manager in 1871 and in subsequent Censuses and at his demise as a (retired) Bank Clerk.

 

[Helen7]

Yes clearly there would have had to be a Coroner's Inquest had an incident taken place and death the result by person or persons unknown.

Had there been an inquest, this would have been mentioned on the death certificate and the informant would have been the Coroner. I have a few examples of this in my own family, including my paternal grandmother. My father found her dead at the bottom of the stairs when he (aged 19) came home from work. He told me she died of a heart attack, but it seems the heart failure happened AFTER her fall, as the cause of death is given as "Syncope from myocardial degeneration following a fall downstairs in the household. Accidental death". The informant is the Coroner and it says an Inquest was held the day after her death (in January 1939).

 

[Heather]

As Helen said if there had been an inquest .......... My husband's grandmother's death certificate states in the cause of death section " Misadventure - a broken neck and compound fracture of ribs sustained by being knocked down by a motor car " followed by the name of the road and date of the accident. The informant column states " Certificate received from Harold ? Coroner for Lancashire. Inquest held. 15th October 1934." This was reported in the newspaper.

 

[Bob Spiers]

It's amazing what you find when not really looking, but that is certainly what happened with my 'Mackie' investigation when I set about writing its story for my Tribal Pages. I had the death registration detail but wanted to add the BNA newspaper report originally discovered by Peter. This time I really did go minimal entering just 'mackie' and then zoning on the year 1894. It would not let me narrow the search by location to Kent, so on a whim I clicked on 'R' and was surprised to see it showing Ramsgate (3). The search uncovered the 3 items and the last one was the death record, the middle one not relative to my search, but the first item truly caught my eye,

As always happens with BNA searches one gets the generic heading (often garbled by Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software), and then click on the article itself which, when suitably enlarged, one can read. Here they are with the OCR Headline first followed by the actual clipping. It will be self evident why they were of interest to me and note the date it appeared in the Thanet Advertiser - 7th July 1894





So would my George Mackie a retired Bank Clerk -about 3 weeks shy of 60 - be a crew member on a Pleasure Yacht sailing off Margate (the sister seaside town of Ramsgate). Well I do not know that for sure but 'why not' springs to mind. How else would a Newspaper describe someone being part of a Pleasure Yacht other than a crew member. But an inexperienced crew member at that as he fell over board and banged his head and after rescue was taken to the local Cottage Hospital.

The head trauma injury could well explain how (if it was George as seems likely) he finally suffered from Hemiplegia and given the fact the complaint was recognised around mid October -49 days before he died on 3rd December 1894.

I had not anticipated this later development, but now uncovered, will give it due consideration and perhaps delve further or see what family thinks. In the meantime perhaps others would like to comment?

 

[Helen7]

What an interesting find, Bob! It may be a bit of a stretch for your retired bank clerk to turn up as a crew member on a pleasure yacht, though as you say not impossible. The connection with the head injury may be a coincidence and it could be a different Mackie, of course. It's a pity they don't give his forename or age in the report. In the absence of any other newspaper reports with more details, you could investigate seamen named Mackie in the censuses in the Margate area to see if there is a suitable alternative candidate.

 

[At home in NZ]

Never one for letting a story about anything to do with the sea go past me I resorted to my friend Google, who came up with this about the Moss Rose. interesting photos of crew in it.
I haven't read it thoroughly so I don't know if crew names are given.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Never one for letting a story about anything to do with the sea go past me I resorted to my friend Google, who came up with this about the Moss Rose. interesting photos of crew in it.
I haven't read it thoroughly so I don't know if crew names are given.

A most interesting find and thanks for posting it. This may throw a completely different light on the matter and needs further investigation which it will get in due course. Thanks again.

 

[Katie Bee]

I haven't read it thoroughly so I don't know if crew names are given.

It just seems to be photos, lots of photos of the crew and this comment at the beginning:-
'Some pictures of the Moss Rose and New Moss Rose, just how many local pleasure boats there were of this name is a bit of an unknown.'
I think you have your work cut out again Bob.

 

[Helen7]

As Helen said if there had been an inquest .......... My husband's grandmother's death certificate states in the cause of death section " Misadventure - a broken neck and compound fracture of ribs sustained by being knocked down by a motor car " followed by the name of the road and date of the accident. The informant column states " Certificate received from Harold ? Coroner for Lancashire. Inquest held. 15th October 1934." This was reported in the newspaper.

Yes, when I said the informant would be the Coroner, in my certificates of this type the informant column has "Certificate received from (name) Coroner for (place). Inquest held (date)." The inquest date is useful for tracing newspaper reports of these, which I've successfully done in several cases. This includes my great great grandfather who was "accidentally killed by being run over by an express train", these words appearing on the death certificate as well as being the verdict returned by the inquest jury. Actually, as - according to several witnesses who gave evidence at the inquest - he stepped out in front of the passenger train having been unsighted by a goods train going in the opposite direction, I'm surprised a 'misadventure' verdict wasn't returned, as in Heather's case of the road accident victim. Especially as the inquest jury recommended safety improvements for the pedestrian crossing involved. The death was in 1877, so maybe 'misadventure' wasn't used much then?

On the maritime theme, my husband's 3x g-grandfather, the mate of the "Prince of Wales" steamer trading between Swansea and Bristol, was "accidentally drowned in Cumberland Basin" (according to his death cert). A detailed newspaper report (which does give his name, age, family circumstances and even a character reference from his employer), says he disappeared from his boat on a Saturday evening (23 May 1857), leaving just his cap on the deck, and his body was recovered the next day. The newspaper report says there was an inquest on the Monday, but that nothing transpired to show how he got into the water (I suspect he might have fallen overboard while drunk!). Oddly the inquest is not mentioned on the death certificate in this case, though the informant is the Coroner for Bristol.

 

[At home in NZ]

There were two vessels called Moss Rose. First there was ship number 46944 and in this link . There was also ship number 110304 however, it's the New Moss Rose but possibly 'the one'

 

[Heather]

Searching in the British Newspapers on FMP with Mackie, Margate and Moss Rose in the search boxes.......... I found this very interesting and amusing article.



Canterbury Journal, Kentish Times and Farmers' Gazette 10 May 1890

 

[At home in NZ]

Searching in the British Newspapers on FMP with Mackie, Margate and Moss Rose in the search boxes.......... I found this very interesting and amusing article.

View attachment 2102

Canterbury Journal, Kentish Times and Farmers' Gazette 10 May 1890

The 1891 census has a William B Mackie living in Deal, Kent, his occupation is Trinity Pilot which indicates a long association with the sea.
This is not the Mackie that Bob is looking for.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Searching in the British Newspapers on FMP with Mackie, Margate and Moss Rose in the search boxes.......... I found this very interesting and amusing article.

Thanks Heather and you have without question resolved the matter for me because I knew of a W. Mackie in Ramsgate from a previous search. But your posting - and the contribution from AtHNZ about the Moss Rose - is enough for me to call a halt trying to tie George Mackie into the Moss Rose boating accident. So no nearer to establishing what caused his Hemiplegia, so my (Coroner) verdict is the Hemiplegia was caused by 'reason or reasons unknown'.

 

[peter]

It's very likely he had a stroke, which is the most common cause of hemiplagia.

It's possible he retired after having the stroke - 59 would have been a young age for a healthy person to retire. Maybe he collapsed on the steps of the bank, but he certainly wasn't murdered. It may not have been his first stroke - perhaps it was the job that killed him.

 

[Bob Spiers]

It's very likely he had a stroke, which is the most common cause of hemiplagia.

It's possible he retired after having the stroke - 59 would have been a young age for a healthy person to retire. Maybe he collapsed on the steps of the bank, but he certainly wasn't murdered. It may not have been his first stroke - perhaps it was the job that killed him.

Yes, a pretty fair summary of what may well have happened.