Military footnote - can anyone translate

[Bob Spiers]

I am seeking a John Morley born circa 1890-95 in Lancashire who served in a Lancashire Regiment. I found a service record showing someone of that name serving in a Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers during WW1. The information was scant: Morley, John :: 2nd Lancs. Fus ::8114: Pte. But it is the red footnote alongside (shown below) that I am having trouble deciphering and wonder if anyone can help?

The John Morley of my research was sent out with his Battalion to the British Protectorate of Bermuda, (which I was informed was part of the Royal Lancashire Regiment but have not been able to establish such a Regiment existed at this time), but could well have been (Royal) Lancashire Fusiliers who were garrisoned in Bermuda during and after the war alongside the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment. At any rate John stayed on in Bermuda after being demobbed and in due time married a lady of Portuguese extraction and both feature heavily in the ancestry of my Grandson's in-laws in Bermuda. Bear in mind the period relates through 1914 and up to 1923/4.

 

[Heather]

I am seeking a John Morley born circa 1890-95 in Lancashire who served in a Lancashire Regiment. I found a service record showing someone of that name serving in a Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers during WW1. The information was scant: Morley, John :: 2nd Lancs. Fus ::8114: Pte. But it is the red footnote alongside (shown below) that I am having trouble deciphering and wonder if anyone can help?View attachment 1063

Hi Bob, Do you have this information?

Silver War Badge Roll Transcription
First name(s) John
Last name Morley
Service number 8114
Rank Private
Badge number 176167
Enlistment date 16-Aug-1900
Discharge date 06-Apr-1917
Regiment/unit Lancashire Fusiliers
Cause of discharge Transferred Class P army Res. awarded 13/9 for 13 weeks Condl.
Whether served overseas Yes
Badge date of issue 09-Jun-1917
Record set Silver War Badge Roll 1914-1920
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain

 

[Bob Spiers]

Hi Bob, Do you have this information?

No Heather and you are an Angel because now I can 'sense' rather than understand what the red script was all about. I greatly appreciate your input.

Mind you I still have to work out he is the John Morley I seek as I see this one was a professional soldier - 1900-1917. I wonder if the Class P reserve did not so much take him out of the Army as to be shipped out to Bermuda to be stationed in a Garrison there. But am on the trail!

 

[Heather]

Hi Bob, glad to be able to help, maybe the information about the Silver Star Badge from FMP will also help ...........

About Silver War Badge roll 1914-1920
Discover if your ancestor who served during World War One was issued with a Silver War Badge after being honourably discharged because of illness or injury.
Each record includes a transcript. The amount of information listed varies, but the Silver War Badge roll records usually include the following information about your ancestor:

• Name
• Regimental Number
• Rank
• Unit from which discharged
• Badge number (number of Silver War Badge)
• Date of enlistment
• Date of discharge
• Cause of Discharge
• Whether served overseas
• Date of issue (date the Silver War Badge was issued)
  
  Discover more about Silver War badge roll records
  Over one million Silver War Badges were issued to men and women who were honourably discharged due to illness or injury during World War One.
  The badge was first issued in 1916, and could be applied for by all of those discharged since the start of the war. Approximately half of the almost two million men and women who were eligible to wear the badge applied for it. The small circular silver badge bears the initials of the King and a crown and is inscribed with the words ‘For King and Empire, Services Rendered’
• 
  
• On the red footnote do you have the column headings for all the numbers and letters? Good luck with your research.

 

[Heather]

Hi Bob and anyone else who is interested , I found this on the Long Long Trail site Reserves lots of information regarding the classes of reserves.

 

[Bob Spiers]

On the red footnote do you have the column headings for all the numbers and letters? Good luck with your research.

Sadly no, but I think it was just handwritten across without reference to column headers, but could be wrong. Still the ball is rolling and thanks for your good luck comment. I think it may be one of those occasions where luck may well play its part.

 

[Heather]

Sadly no, but I think it was just handwritten across without reference to column headers, but could be wrong. .

You are not wrong Bob, as I have now seen the document you referred to, it was just written across the page.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Continuing on the same theme -my search for the correct John Morley in a Military capacity and from Lancashire - another little poser on which I would value a second opinion. To follow and comment you will need an FMP subscription. Select Military British Army Records -John Morley -1899 -from Wigan, Lancs. Or if allows without a subscription try this URL Morley ...but you will need to check out the original image and not just the Transcription.

You will see John records his age as 18 years and 24 days (very precise) and (quite separately) there is a Birth Registration for a John Morley, 1899 Wigan which fits. However, an age check on his Service Record records that after sight of birth Certificate his date of birth was confirmed as 25/08/1901. The Service Record is dated 23 March 1917 which makes John's age (from the Birth Certificate) 16 years and (just shy of) 7 months. Yet he is 'accepted' (with enrollment scored through) for the Training Reserve Regiment! As it was 3 years into the war he was a late enroller in any case, and perhaps a Training Reserve Regiment was right for him.

There are two other interesting tid bits: one his occupation as a 'Dataller' which I discovered meant 'Casual Worker, employed on a daily basis' (I had not heard of that before); and two he records any previous Military Service as "RFA". Now RFA stands for Royal Field Artillery and whilst that would be not at all untoward if he was perhaps 20 or older, it would just mean a transfer from the RFA to a Training Reserve which was a common practice. But even if he was as he records, 18 years and 24 days, a previous service with the RFA sounds a little mysterious, unless they had Cadets in those days?

So good Forum people what do you make of the age facts and previous service? I am really interested to find if he was eventually posted to Bermuda which served as a training base during WW1 as well as a Garrison base for countless Regiments from Britain & Canada. If so then he stayed on after the war and married a wife of Portuguese extraction (from the Azores) and she was born 1899 and I can't help feeling so was John, despite the anomalies of age and information shown in his Service Record. Mind you 1901 would not be out the question as they did not marry until circa 1922/3. But what do you make of it all?

 

[Tim]

and two he records any previous Military Service as "RFA". Now RFA stands for Royal Field Artillery and whilst that would be not at all untoward if he was perhaps 20 or older, it would just mean a transfer from the RFA to a Training Reserve which was a common practice. But even if he was as he records, 18 years and 24 days, a previous service with the RFA sounds a little mysterious, unless they had Cadets in those days?

Bob, Question 7 says "Have you ever served.." and the answer is No.
Question 8 says "Have you any preference.." and the answer is RFA.

 

[Tim]

On the age, when this John signed up it looks like he indicated he was 18, but further checks showed he was born in 1901.

The John you are chasing is born 1890-5? So we need to keep looking.

 

[Tim]

Can you provide any other info? Where he lived? Service number? Did he serve in WW1?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Bob, Question 7 says "Have you ever served.." and the answer is No.
Question 8 says "Have you any preference.." and the answer is RFA.

Thank you Tim, that clears up that point at least.

To answer the other points you raise, as Manuel would say (in Fawlty Towers)..."I know nothing". Not strictly true but here is the information given to me by the 59 year old Grandson of John Morley, who in turn is the father-in-law of my Grandson in Bermuda. I met him and his wife back in July when they all visited England.

"I know everything there is to know about my Portuguese grandmother, but absolutely nothing about my Grandfather except I am told by elderly relatives (as I never met him and he died when I was 6 and living in America, whilst he was in Bermuda) he was John Morley, but was known by all as 'Jack' and came from Lancashire, England. He was posted with his Regiment (Royal Lancashire Regiment) to Bermuda during the war and stayed on after demob. Most likely because he had met a lady who he would eventually marry, and she was newly arrived from the Azores and was of Portuguese extraction." Her birth year was 1899 and it was thought(!) he was of similar age".

My research showed there was no 'Royal' Lancashire Regiment at that time but there was an East Lancashire Regiment and they were in Bermuda on training and garrison duty (Bermuda was a large Garrison base) from 1916-1919 (& again 1921-1923 but different Battalions). There was also a South Lancashire Regiment but could find no Bermuda connection. Further research showed that during the war many different Battalions of other Regiments were posted to Bermuda; amongst whom were elements of the Training Reserve, Royal Garrison Artillery & Border Regiments, but there were many others. To complicate matters further it was standard practice to attach 'Reserve' soldiers into other Regiments and so a solider could (for example) end up in the East Lancashire Regiment.

I needed to seek out 'Morleys' named John (with or without a middle name or even with John as a Middle name) born circa 1898 but really 1890-1900, or even 1901 at a push. They needed to have a service Record, hopefully with a Lancashire Regiment. They must also have been born or resided in Lancashire as I believe that part of the family story was true. Apart from the two Lancashire Regiments extant at that time (East & South) I also found the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment, Royal Lancashire Fusiliers, and then as my knowledge base extended about soldiers being attached from other Regiments, to really short list soldiers who served in WW1 named John Morley born in Lancashire.

And that is really where I am at, going through each and often ending up ruling them out for many reasons, not least because they died during the Great War or were invalided out. It is a time consuming, daunting task and I have two other researchers via Ancestry doing their best to help. Both both have information on the Grandmother but are as 'in the dark' as I on Morley; and one believed he was named William but "isn't sure"! So that is all I have to date and am still short listing my John Morleys'

 

[Tim]

All a bit vague, but pretty standard. So we're looking for a John (or maybe William) Morley, but known as Jack. He may, or may not, have been born in Lancashire, but most likely served in a Lancashire Regiment. He could have been born between 1890 and 1901 (+/- 5 years).

Do you have his death cert? That might have some valuable clues on birth dates and locations?

 

[Tim]

I am really interested to find if he was eventually posted to Bermuda which served as a training base during WW1 as well as a Garrison base for countless Regiments from Britain & Canada. If so then he stayed on after the war and married a wife of Portuguese extraction (from the Azores) and she was born 1899 and I can't help feeling so was John, despite the anomalies of age and information shown in his Service Record. Mind you 1901 would not be out the question as they did not marry until circa 1922/3. But what do you make of it all?

Bob, reading the 2nd page, Statement of Services, It says he was discharged because he was under age, 23.11.17 I think it's safe to rule this guy out.

 

[Heather]

Bob have you read all the other pages on his service record? there are about eight, as Tim says, it does state that he was discharged for mis-stating his date of birth. On one page his father is named as John and his mother as Bridget, does this help?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Bob, reading the 2nd page, Statement of Services, It says he was discharged because he was under age, 23.11.17 I think it's safe to rule this guy out.

Bob have you read all the other pages on his service record? there are about eight, as Tim says, it does state that he was discharged for mis-stating his date of birth. On one page his father is named as John and his mother as Bridget, does this help?

Thanks to both of your for pointing out there were more pages to view and makes me wonder if there were additional pages to some of the other Service Records I viewed? However, returning to this John I did not know for sure he had been rejected for service, but had sort of rejected him for consideration on account of his real age and unlikelihood he would have made it to Bermuda. However I did take the time to check the Census and duly found him with parents John & Bridget and filed the information away under 'also rans'.

My further response to Tim will explain more but thanks again for the information.

 

[Bob Spiers]

All a bit vague, but pretty standard. So we're looking for a John (or maybe William) Morley, but known as Jack. He may, or may not, have been born in Lancashire, but most likely served in a Lancashire Regiment. He could have been born between 1890 and 1901 (+/- 5 years).

Do you have his death cert? That might have some valuable clues on birth dates and locations?

Amazingly I was about to respond about how difficult it is to extract any genealogical information out of Bermuda (unless a Bermudian Citizen) when I received an email from Eddie in Bermuda (the grandson of John Morley). I had asked him to find out the same sort of information if he could, and he came up with the following.

A cousin (of his) has the Marriage Certificate in which their Grandfather is shown as John Morley whilst the Church record shows him as William (explaining where 'William' came from). He then visited his grandfather's grave in a Bermudan War Veteran's Burial grounds (which answered for me why he was not buried with his wife as I had a picture of her gravestone and she died in 1978). On his Memorial stone is clearly shown.. JOHN MORLEY died 25th May 1964. (No age mentioned). But the most valuable information in my eyes is that the memorial also records E.LANCS. No.10 which translates as East Lancashire Regiment (as I thought) No. 10 Battalion. So a good step forward in the Military sense.

I have emailed back to ask what age is shown on the Marriage Certificate to see if I can pin down his year of birth (and check if it gives his father's name, occupation or residence) .. and confirm there was no age at death shown on the Memorial. Meanwhile back to the Military Records and see if the additional information helps.

 

[Tim]

Found this one

First name(s) John
Last name Morley
Service number 11452
Rank Private
Corps East Lancashire Regiment
Service record Soldier Number: 11452, Rank: Private, Corps: East Lancashire Regiment
Archive reference WO372/14
Archive reference description Campaign Medal Index Cards and Silver War Badge Cards

 

[Tim]

Not this one
First name(s) JOHN
Last name MORLEY
Service number 7897
Rank PRIVATE
Regiment East Lancashire Regiment
Battalion 1st Battalion.
Birth place CLITHEROE, LANCS
Residence -
Enlistment place ACCRINGTON, LANCS
Death year 1915
Death day 6
Death month 7
Cause of death Killed in action
Death place France & Flanders

 

[Bob Spiers]

Tim, thanks, I found two John Morley's sadly who were KIA, but your first one is my current front runner and so far looks good, especially as the ELR has been confirmed. I appreciate your help and that of Heather who has PM'd saying she believes she has another which I await.