In Search of Stanley

[Helen7]

Surely Henry Morton Stanley couldn't have been a product of the 1837 Rowlands-Davies/Parry marriage discussed above, as he wouldn't then have been illegitimate. Amongst all the other mystery, the fact of his illegitimacy (and growing up in the workhouse) seems to have been well documented.

 

[peter]

Surely Henry Morton Stanley couldn't have been a product of the 1837 Rowlands-Davies/Parry marriage discussed above, as he wouldn't then have been illegitimate. Amongst all the other mystery, the fact of his illegitimacy (and growing up in the workhouse) seems to have been well documented.

I don't think we know what to believe at this point. There's certainly a shortage of primary sources - we still haven't found his birth registration, nor have we found him on the 1841 Census.

Ironically Stanley himself wasn't believed when he claimed to have found Dr Livingstone. That turned out to be true, but I don't think we can assume that everything in his autobiography is true - indeed, it's very unlikely, so the real question is, which bits are right, which bits are wrong, and which bits are exaggerated!

 

[Pauline]

Maternal uncles arranged for a married couple who lived within the precincts of the castle to look after the child who, when he was about 6, was deposited in S. Asaph union workhouse.

There's a bit more about this on the St Asaph page at The Workhouse website. It's about half way down the page but I'm not sure how much it adds to what has already been mentioned.

 

[Helen7]

we still haven't found his birth registration

Do you feel the John Roberts Parry birth registration can't be him? I suppose the only way to find out would be to get the certificate and see if the father/informant is Moses Parry. But I'm not about to fork out £7 to the GRO to find out!

There is also another baptism of a child of John and Elizabeth Rowlands in Denbigh: Joseph baptised 23 Sep 1838, died 17 Dec 1838, father a stone cutter, presumably the first child of the marriage of John Rowlands and Elizabeth Davies.

 

[At home in NZ]

John Rowland (aged 55) in 1841 in Llanrhaiadr that I mentioned in post #2 was listed as a farmer.

This John Rowlands married Anne Davies. 12 Sep 1814 in Denbigh this is the record
I wonder if her parents may have had John with them when the 1841 census was taken?
This might be her birth record here but I don't have access to FMP in order to find out who her parents were.

Peter Higginbotham's workhouse website has some detail about John's early life, here
It was Richard Price junior who took John to the Workhouse. I found Richard Price in the 1841 census but John isn't there, Piece: 1406 Book: 2 Folio: 8 Page Number: 7
Moses Parry is on the same page.

I think I have exhausted all avenues for finding John in the 1841 census, might be wrong though...........................

 

[Pauline]

Peter Higginbotham's workhouse website has some detail about John's early life,

I think that’s the same link that I gave in #23 above, isn’t it?

 

[Helen7]

This John Rowlands married Anne Davies. 12 Sep 1814 in Denbigh this is the record

According to the marriage register for this marriage, John Rowland was a widower (and a farmer) when he married Anne. The register helpfully gives names of parents of both bride and groom. Anne's parents were Robert Davies of Henllan Parish by Mary his wife deceased.

This might be her birth record here but I don't have access to FMP in order to find out who her parents were.

This Anne Davies's parents were Methusalem and Blanch. So not the same Anne who married John Rowland in 1814.

Peter Higginbotham's workhouse website has some detail about John's early life, here
It was Richard Price junior who took John to the Workhouse. I found Richard Price in the 1841 census but John isn't there, Piece: 1406 Book: 2 Folio: 8 Page Number: 7
Moses Parry is on the same page.

I looked at this workhouse link after Pauline posted it and also noticed that John's foster parents were Richard and Jenny Price. As you say, this couple are neighbours of Moses Parry in 1841. I wonder if that could be significant.

 

[Jean999]

According to the information online, Elizabeth Parry (the mother) had several other illegitimate children (probably 4) before finally having a child in wedlock. I am a bit surprised that no-one has mentioned these children and investigated if (and how) these births were registered. I read that the mother was admitted to the St Asaph workhouse in 1850 with two children. In the 1851 census there is Elizabeth Parry 31 (described as a widow) with Robert aged 3 and Elizabeth aged 1 in the Workhouse.

 

[peter]

In 1874 the then Registrar General estimated that non-registration was 65 out of 1000 (6.5%) in the first 10 years of registration, 29 in the second decade, and just 18 in the third decade.

 

[Jean999]

I have found on FindMyPast the baptism for half-brother Robert, baptised 23rd Jul 1848, father Robert Jones, plasterer and mother Elizabeth Parry. Another bastard baptism. No corresponding birth registration to be found.

 

[peter]

No corresponding birth registration to be found.

I'll mention this one just in case:

JONES, ROBERT DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1848 S Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 27 Page 214

 

[Jean999]

In the 1861 and 1871 census you can find Elizabeth Jones "the wife" of Robert Jones, plasterer living in Bodelwyddan, Flintshire. James William Jones was baptised 22 Nov 1863, but no corresponding birth registration. But no inclusion of the word "bastard" this time, but whether Elizabeth officially married Robert Jones is another matter.

 

[At home in NZ]

I think that’s the same link that I gave in #23 above, isn’t it?

Yes it was but it didn't do any harm to repeat it, did it. I feel ignored sometimes too.
Has anybody bothered to look into the link I provided in my first post in this discussion?

The public family tree in Ancestry that I have been using in order to research further is this one it would pay to have a good look at it. There are many documents referred to which relate to Stanley's aka John Parry/Rowland's early life and the life of his mother.

I don't think the mystery of birth registration will ever be resolved. Unless Peter already knows the answer and is having a game with us? (my tongues is firmly planted in my cheek)

 

[peter]

I don't think the mystery of birth registration will ever be resolved. Unless Peter already knows the answer

Not in this case (or in the case of the much later case of Kate Luard). As I recall Charlie Chaplin's birth registration is also missing - perhaps not having a birth certificate inspires people to greatness!

 

[Helen7]

The public family tree in Ancestry that I have been using in order to research further is this one it would pay to have a good look at it. There are many documents referred to which relate to Stanley's aka John Parry/Rowland's early life and the life of his mother.

Thanks for the link to this tree. Yes, a lot of research there, including the following as a 'Note' attached to the page for John Rowland, dated 21 Dec 2015:
"Dear Mrs Gale, Thank you for your order as detailed below. Birth Certificate: JOHN PARRY / ROWLAND born 28-JAN-1841 in DENBIGH. We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below. We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1840-42). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided... A full refund of £9.25 has been credited to your account via Worldpay."

I notice this tree has two possible fathers for John: John Rowland and James Vaughan Horne, attorney at law, who is alleged to have seduced Elizabeth Parry when she was a maid in Vale Street, Denbigh. The source for this information is Note 36 in the 2007 biography of Stanley by Tim Jeal, to which this link is given.

 

[Helen7]

James William Jones was baptised 22 Nov 1863, but no corresponding birth registration.

The Ancestry 'Steamerpoint' tree that At home in NZ pointed out has this person's birth certificate. He was registered as just James Jones (no middle name), parents Robert Jones, master plasterer, and Elizabeth Jones formerly Parry. He was born 6th Oct 1863 in Bodelwyddan.

The matching birth registration on GRO is:

JONES, JAMES PARRY
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in ST ASAPH 613 Volume 11B Page 359

 

[peter]

Not sure it will help, but the first message on this page has some information about the Parry family:

"Family tradition advises that Elizabeth was related to John Parry who m. Margaret Jones, 1 May 1798, at Llanrhaeadr Pentre Calvinistic Church, Denbighshire. John & Margaret had 8 children: John, Hugh, Mary, Alice[who m. William Williams] Hanah, Moses, Ebenezer and Thomas."

 

[Jean999]

The Ancestry 'Steamerpoint' tree that At home in NZ pointed out has this person's birth certificate. He was registered as just James Jones (no middle name), parents Robert Jones, master plasterer, and Elizabeth Jones formerly Parry. He was born 6th Oct 1863 in Bodelwyddan.

The matching birth registration on GRO is:

JONES, JAMES PARRY
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in ST ASAPH 613 Volume 11B Page 359

This is probably the only child that was born in wedlock. The parents were supposedly married in 1860 (but I have not yet found the marriage record). I suspect that the earlier illegitimate children were not officially registered. If they had been officially registered I would expect to find a pair of entries under the mother's and father's surnames (if both parents were named as on the baptism certificates). The majority of illegitimates I have previously come across only have the mother's name: the father's name is included if both parents are living together (but prevented from marrying by a legal impediment).

 

[Jean999]

I have found a possible marriage of Elizabeth Parry and Robert Jones in St Asaph, the 3rd quarter of 1860. This time I can find a civil registration of marriage, but no corresponding parish record.

 

[Jean999]

Personally, I am veering in favour of the legend that James Vaughan Horne may have seduced Elizabeth Parry and bribed friends to claim paternity of John and Emma at the baptisms. James Vaughan Horne died in 1848, so the timing fits for the family members being admitted to the Workhouse in 1850. Interestingly when Emma marries Llewelyn Hughes in 1872, she calls herself Emma Parry Jones (not Emma Evans as she was baptised) and claims Robert Jones, plasterer as her father. It is not uncommon for illegitimate children to claim step-fathers as their father on marriage certificates rather than leaving a blank, but if she knew the name of her real father I would expect that to be on the marriage certificate.