Finding a 2nd wife’s parents

[EAnne]

I took a DNA test in the hopes of finding the parentage of my 2G grandmother Mary, the 2nd wife of Francis.

By looking at common ancestor matches and shared matches, I have found what appear to be 48 DNA matches with descendants of Francis. I know that 2 of these are with descendants of Francis and Mary, whilst 17 are with descendants of Francis and his 1st wife Caroline.

Searching by surname is problematic: their children's (Irish) birth certificates say Mary was formerly Hardy (informant the father) or Hardding (informant a nurse), so probably the former, but this is a fairly common name. Moreover, this may well have been her name from a previous marriage: a young widow, possibly with a child, may have lived with Francis, who was 20 years older then herself, for support, in which case her birth name is unknown.

Searching by place is also uncertain. Francis lived in Sutton in Ashfield, Nottinghamshire until moving to Ireland after the death of his 1st wife. According to the 1901 Irish census, Mary was born in Nottingham, but could this be a mistake for Nottinghamshire (though the birthplace of one of the other residents is described as Nottinghamshire)?

As a DNA novice, I would welcome any suggestions about what to do next.

 

[peter]

The good news is that at this stage it isn't really a DNA question, since there should be more records than you've mentioned so far. For example, you don't mention their marriage record nor do you mention the baptisms of their children. Either or both could provide valuable clues - the marriage in particular, since this will show whether Mary was a spinster or a widow, and give her name at marriage (which might not be either Hardy or Hardding). The birth registration should show the mother's maiden name, ie her surname immediately prior to her first marriage.

You don't say when this all happened, but clearly the children were born after 1864 when civil registration began in Ireland, and presumably Mary died between 1901 and 1911. Do you know when - or indeed if - they married?

So far as DNA strategies are concerned you can ignore the spelling 'Hardding' as this name doesn't exist. Even 'Harding' is a rare surname in Nottinghamshire.

 

[EAnne]

Sorry, Peter, I didn't want to muddy the waters by giving too much information.

Francis/Frank and Mary's two sons were both baptized in St George's Church of Ireland Church, Balbriggan on 19 Jan 1876, but were born on 10 Sep 1866 and 10 Mar 1870. Could the baptisms have been delayed because the parents weren't married??

I have been unable to find a marriage for Francis and Mary in either Nottinghamshire or Ireland. However, the St George's marriage register for the relevant period does not appear to have survived. (I checked with the Representative Church Body Library and the local vicar - probably lost in 1922).

Francis died in Balbriggan in 1895; Mary in a hospice in south Dublin in 1909.

Searching for Hardy and Nottinghamshire gives about 20 matches; Harding and Nottinghamshire 2 matches.

 

[peter]

I have been unable to find a marriage for Francis and Mary in either Nottinghamshire or Ireland. However, the St George's marriage register for the relevant period does not appear to have survived.

It shouldn't matter whether the church register has survived since the marriage would have been registered with the civil authorities (although civil registration began in 1864, non-Catholic marriages were registered from 1845).

Searching for Hardy and Nottinghamshire gives about 20 matches; Harding and Nottinghamshire 2 matches.

That's a very powerful indication that her maiden surname was Hardy or Harding. Before posting my previous response I checked how many matches I had - there were just 4 Hardys in Nottinghamshire, and no Hardings.

 

[EAnne]

I did check the wonderful irishgenealogy site too, and there is a marriage with the right name in 1865, but it's my 2G grandfather's son, who also moved to Balbriggan, together with other family members. Some stayed in Ireland, some returned to Nottinghamshire, others emigrated to the United States. (I did all this some years ago, and it's a bit hazy now!)
So should I be concentrating on the 20+ Hardy/Harding + Nottinghamshire DNA matches? And what's the best approach?

 

[Pauline]

I have very little experience of Irish genealogy but I can offer a few general thoughts.

If parents were not formally married then they might delay baptising their children, but it could equally suggest that they weren't that committed to getting them baptised. Baptisms were delayed for any number of reasons and it was not so uncommon for parents to have all of their children baptised at the same time.

It should be the mother's maiden name which appears on her children's birth certificates regardless of whether or not she was a widow when she married.

How long a gap was there between the death of Francis's first wife and his relocation to Ireland? It may be that Francis and Mary married in neither Nottinghamshire or Ireland but somewhere else they visited along the way.

And don't forget about wills.

With your DNA matches, since you have two confirmed descendants of Francis and Mary, then by comparing their shared matches with those of confirmed descendants of Francis and Caroline, you may be able to sort out which of the shared matches appear to be related to Mary but not to Francis. A lot will depend on how many shared matches there are and how much DNA you share with them, but by colour coding those matches who appear to be relatives of Mary but not Francis, and considering those matches alongside paper records, you may be able to find avenues worth following up. There is always a fair bit of luck involved since the pertinent people may not have tested, or they may not have trees and can't easily be tracked down in records via their name or username.

 

[peter]

I agree with all of Pauline's comments but would add a reminder that records are being added/amended all the time, so if you did your research 'some years ago' you might find something now that you couldn't find then. (It's certainly worth taking a look at the Mary Ann Hardy who married in Dublin in 1857 since she married someone called Hardinge.)

Also, rather than relying on shared matches, why not collaborate with the two descendants of Francis & Mary? They're up against the same 'brick wall' so they should be highly-motivated to help by giving you access to their matches. For a start, they could well have matches with other descendants of Francis & Mary.

 

[Pauline]

why not collaborate with the two descendants of Francis & Mary?

Always a good idea, if they respond. I admit that I’m so used to people not responding that I sometimes forget to suggest this.

 

[EAnne]

Belated thanks, Peter and Pauline, for all your helpful comments (I've been tied up with family for the last few days).
Yes, I agree that the late baptisms could simply be the preference for a 'bulk' family baptism, as often found in baptism registers. Mary describes herself as a Methodist in the 1901 census, so they may not have felt at home in the Church of Ireland. However Francis's younger son did become a Vestryman of St George's.
Although you both say that the mother's maiden name should appear on the birth certificates, I do wonder whether everyone understood this, especially as a widowed woman's married name is entered in the register if she remarries.
Caroline was buried on 16 May 1862. The only other marriage I could find between then and 1866 in England and Wales was Francis M Spencer in Keighley, Yorks in 1866, but he appears to have stayed in Keighley. Francis was a framework knitter, and his birthplace, Sutton in Ashfield, was an important centre for this, as was Balbriggan, and I think it highly likely that he moved directly from the one place to the other. (Queen Victoria's favourite stockings were Balbriggans).
I checked the calendar of wills and administrations at the Irish National Archives, and found the will of the son-in-law of another of my 2G grandfathers, who also went to Balbriggan, but nothing for Francis or Mary.
I contacted the 2 descendants of Francis and Mary, but had no reply.
Yes, the Mary Ann Hardy who married in Dublin in 1857 looks worth looking into, thank you.
Looking at my DNA, I created 2 new groups, one of the 2 descendants of Francis and Mary and the shared matches of each (24 matches), the other of the shared matches for Francis and Caroline (42 matches). I then looked at the results in the 1st group and created a 3rd group (Mary?) formed of those entries which did not belong to the 'Francis and Caroline' group; this produced 7 matches of between 22 and 41 cm. Does this sound a sensible way forward, or am I going completely astray? Unfortunately, none of the Mary? matches coincided with the searches I had done for Hardy / Harding +Nottinghamshire.
Sorry this is so long and complicated: I should learn to use quotes!

 

[peter]

Although you both say that the mother's maiden name should appear on the birth certificates, I do wonder whether everyone understood this

The question is not whether everyone understood it, but whether the registrar did. I haven't checked an Irish birth register from the late 1860s, but in the 1870s the column in the register is headed up "Name and Surname and Maiden Surname of Mother" - which seems pretty clear.

 

[EAnne]

The 1866 birth register does have this same heading, but I still wonder whether a rushed registrar may sometimes just have asked the informant for the mother's 'former name', as it is written (and later printed) 'formerly' in the register.

But to get back to DNA, should I look first at the 7 matches I described above which may, I think, relate to Mary, or to the 22 Hardy / Harding + Nottinghamshire matches (8 to 30 cm)? And what is the best way to go about this? I would welcome any suggestions.

 

[peter]

But to get back to DNA, should I look first at the 7 matches I described above which may, I think, relate to Mary, or to the 22 Hardy / Harding + Nottinghamshire matches (8 to 30 cm)? And what is the best way to go about this? I would welcome any suggestions.

When you're using DNA to overcome 'brick walls' you'll have some matches with people who haven't got as far back as you, some matches with people who are stuck at the same 'brick wall', perhaps some with people who think they've knocked down the 'brick wall', and - if you're lucky - some with people who are connected to you on the other side of the 'brick wall'.

 

[Pauline]

But to get back to DNA, should I look first at the 7 matches I described above which may, I think, relate to Mary, or to the 22 Hardy / Harding + Nottinghamshire matches (8 to 30 cm)? And what is the best way to go about this? I would welcome any suggestions.

I would suggest starting with the matches you think may relate to Mary. Hopefully some of those will have trees and not be too distant, so you may be able to spot families in common to some of those matches, and who may provide the link to Mary. It may also be worth looking at the 22 Nottinghamshire matches, but your connection to them may be unrelated to the Hardy or Hardings in their trees. The thing to be wary of when you look at the Hardy and Harding matches is confirmation bias - you need to stay objective and keep an open mind.

 

[EAnne]

Thank you, Pauline and Peter, for all your advice.
I have just taken advantage of a 50% off Ancestry offer, so will be better able to pursue these possibilities now - was worried about the threat to remove a lot of the information currently available to people without a subscription.
May be back with more questions in the future!

 

[EAnne]

I've spent what time I could spare in the last few weeks looking at the Mary? matches, then the Hardy/Harding + Notts matches, but without great success.
Several years ago I found a Mary Hardy christened in 1832 at Teversal whom I thought could be a possibility, although the 1901 census and her death certificate suggest she was born 1840-1841. She appeared to have 2 illegitimate children, then married Edward Marriott, a widower with children, in 1858 in nearby Sutton in Ashfield. Edward remarried in 1867, and in 1871 Edward and Mary's son and one of Mary's illegitimate children are living with Edward, his new wife and other children. The Mary Marriott, aged 25, buried in Sutton in 1865, is likely to have been the unmarried Mary who was born in Sutton in 1840 and was living in nearby Mansfield in 1861; I have been unable to find any other plausible death. Is it too far-fetched to suppose that Mary Hardy-Marriott left her husband and went to Balbriggan with widowed Francis Spencer some time between 1862 and 1866?
When I added this hypothetical Mary and her parents to my Ancestry tree I was able to trace two 4th cousins 1x removed, two 5th cousins 1x removed, and three 5th cousins 2x removed. Is this sufficient evidence to support my idea, or am I just 'clutching at straws'?

 

[peter]

When I added this hypothetical Mary and her parents to my Ancestry tree I was able to trace two 4th cousins 1x removed, two 5th cousins 1x removed, and three 5th cousins 2x removed. Is this sufficient evidence to support my idea, or am I just 'clutching at straws'?

Are you talking about DNA matches? If so this is useful supporting evidence.

Is it too far-fetched to suppose that Mary Hardy-Marriott left her husband and went to Balbriggan with widowed Francis Spencer some time between 1862 and 1866?

No, though if you're right it means Edward committed bigamy. Do you have the certificate for his marriage to Jane Vernon nee Mande(r)vil(l)??

The Mary Marriott, aged 25, buried in Sutton in 1865, is likely to have been the unmarried Mary who was born in Sutton in 1840 and was living in nearby Mansfield in 1861

It's probably worth £2.50 to make sure.

I might include the 1871 Census for Edward Marriott's complicated family in a future newsletter - it would be a good opportunity to remind members of the different ways in which son-in-law and daughter-in-law were used on the 19th century.

 

[EAnne]

Thank you, Peter, for not writing off my idea as nonsense.
Yes, the 4th and 5th cousins are all DNA matches, and Ancestry marks one of the 4th cousins as a common ancestor. Four of the 5th cousins are descended from Andrew, born illegitimately to Sarah Hardy in 1833, who sometimes uses the name of the man his mother later married; the other DNA match is descended from an Andrew Hardy born in 1844, the son of Sarah's brother William. Unfortunately I have not yet managed to link any of my DNA matches to Mary's mother, Mary Bingham.
I don't have the Edward Marriot - Jane Vernon marriage certificate. When I purchased the cheap death certificate last year it proved inconclusive (unknown informant and different place in Sutton; age 25 years).
Yes, Edward Marriott certainly had an interesting household, with his 3 wives and associated children!
I would welcome any ideas about next steps.

 

[peter]

Yes, the 4th and 5th cousins are all DNA matches, and Ancestry marks one of the 4th cousins as a common ancestor. Four of the 5th cousins are descended from Andrew, born illegitimately to Sarah Hardy in 1833, who sometimes uses the name of the man his mother later married; the other DNA match is descended from an Andrew Hardy born in 1844, the son of Sarah's brother William.

Who is Sarah Hardy?

I don't have the Edward Marriot - Jane Vernon marriage certificate. When I purchased the cheap death certificate last year it proved inconclusive (unknown informant and different place in Sutton; age 25 years).

I suspect the death register entry has told you all you really need to know - if she had been the wife of Edward Marriott it would have said this in the Occupation column.

 

[EAnne]

William and Sarah are cousins of my possible 2G grandmother Mary Hardy.

Mary Marriott's occupation is given as 'Seamer of cotton hosiery'.

 

[EAnne]

So would you advise me to assume that the Mary Hardy born in 1832 in Teversal is probably my 2G grandmother, and to move on to different things, or can you suggest other ways to verify /misprove this connection? There are, as I said, discrepancies in the birth date, but I have the impression that this was not too unusual; an 1832 birth would reduce the age gap with Francis (born 1820), and might explain the lack of children born after 1870.
My mother and relatives of her generation are all dead. Would it perhaps be helpful if I could persuade my brother to take a DNA test?