Do you remember Brown & Polson blancmange?

[peter]

a reasonably sized High Street grocery store called "Fine Fare"

James (Jimmy) Gulliver, who was chairman of Fine Fare in their heyday was a non-executive director of the group I worked for in 1974-75, and I met him in 1974 at a Christmas party held at the home of the chairman. He was a very affable chap with a lovely lady companion who he introduced as his wife, but wasn't. After Fine Fare he went on to found a company called Argyll Foods which was highly successful.

which closed on New Years Day and 2nd January, late 70s early 80s - how things change

We had half-day closing which was Thursday where I grew up, but Saturday in London. Almost all shops were closed on Sundays, of course, and only corner shops stayed open after 5 or 6 o'clock. There were no out-of-town shopping centres - I remember all the publicity when Brent Cross opened in 1976, and the excitement of going there for the first time (it didn't last long - the excitement, that is).

 

[Bob Spiers]

the first large supermarket was Asda

That reminds me I totally missed out ASDA when relating to Supermarkets within the area, especially as the Asda in nearby Canterbury, is one of its largest stores, and was 'the' largest when built circa mid 2000's although I recall from a local newspaper report, other new Asda stores have taken over that mantle.

I missed it out in the main because we only ever shopped there soon after its opening and remember they employed a 'Greeter' and rather liked their clothing range. But that was about it and my wife positively disliked their narrow checkouts and so we gave it a miss and haven't returned since. The store is however immensely popular with Uni students (my grand daughter was one such at the time) and flock their in shoals taking advantage of Asda hot and cold food self serve -Curries; pizzas, Mexican food and such ... and the fact prices are extremely reasonable.

Tesco ...rebranded it from a Tesco Metro to a Tesco Extra //Tesco said that people did not shop there like a Metro shopper, but used it like an Express.

Not sure I understand your comments about Metro being cheaper than Extra and although I think some of my references to Tesco Metro may have been intended as Tesco Express (and I know both exist in the locale) I am equally sure our Tesco Extra store has the cheaper prices. This is often borne out when my wife shops at the smaller stores and returns to the car saying she will leave whatever it is she wanted to buy to our weekly shop (at the Extra) as I am not paying those prices. I am aware now that our local Tesco shop is an Express store where prices are highest, but according to my wife prices at the Canterbury Metro store are priced higher than the Extra. Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Katie Bee]

Not sure I understand your comments about Metro being cheaper than Extra and although I think some of my references to Tesco Metro may have been intended as Tesco Express (and I know both exist in the locale) I am equally sure our Tesco Extra store has the cheaper prices.

Sorry Bob, I got my Extras and Expresses muddled up!
As you surmise, Tesco Extra is the big massive store, where people usually do large shops and some items are usually cheaper. Tesco Metro is usually in town centres and people do more larger shoping trips than in the more local Tesco Express where shoppers just go in for a few items, so the Express usually has higher prices.
I hope I have explained that OK. So in our local town they rebranded the Tesco Metro to a Tesco Express and put up the price of quite a number of items.
I meant that it was rebranded as a Tesco Express but wrote Extra. Call it a senior moment, it wasn't meant to confuse you.

 

[At home in NZ]

Sorry Bob, I got my Extras and Expresses muddled up!
As you surmise, Tesco Extra is the big massive store, where people usually do large shops and some items are usually cheaper. Tesco Metro is usually in town centres and people do more larger shoping trips than in the more local Tesco Express where shoppers just go in for a few items, so the Express usually has higher prices.
I hope I have explained that OK. So in our local town they rebranded the Tesco Metro to a Tesco Express and put up the price of quite a number of items.
I meant that it was rebranded as a Tesco Express but wrote Extra. Call it a senior moment, it wasn't meant to confuse you.

How confusing, I thought Tesco was Tesco. Mind you I haven't lived in England since 1973 and when I go back supermarket shopping is not in my itinerary.
We have one 'large' supermarket in our small town where we do almost all of our shopping. There is a farm along the road where they have a large tin shed full of very fresh veg, we buy things from there.

 

[Bob Spiers]

We had half-day closing which was Thursday where I grew up,

From my birth area onwards -Birmingham-Northamptonshire/North Buckinghamshire/East Kent half day closing has always been on a WEDNESDAY. If there were variations in any of the places I lived or worked, I never came across them, although of course they may have existed.

One thing that did change from place to place (again places I knew in the areas mentioned) was MARKET DAYS. Where I lived Thursdays - where I worked Fridays - and the next coastal town across Saturdays. Nearby Canterbury had two -Wednesdays and Fridays - and although the former clashed with half day closing, very few of the major stores observed half-day closing in order to cater for tourists attracted by the Cathedral and being a UNESCO World Heritage site.

I am aware the larger towns and cities have permanent designated Market Areas, some with pre-set stalls. Of the two I knew well - Birmingham had its famous Bull Ring Market that catered both indoors and out for everything from clothes and bric-a-brac; fruit and veg; meat and fish. Northampton with its picturesque Market Square and pre-set stalls. Mondays always fruit, vegetables and flowers, Tuesday to Saturday general market days.

In my travels around the country in the past - North (Lancashire/Yorkshire) , Midlands (East & West) and the South (East, West & London) - I have come across many such markets and my wife and I make a point of visiting them, often accompanied by friends or family proudly showing us around. It would be a shame to have them disappear or diminish because of the pandemic or even fade away because of Supermarket or 'named' Shopping Centre pressures from (in my area) Bluewater or Lakeside. There is room for both but give me a Market any day.

Is early closing still operating in your areas and what days (or days) is your market day?

 

[A. Muse]

To go back to the original thread about custard powder, we used to have 'Monk and Glass' custard powder, a yellow label with a plump brown robed monk holding a glass (which looked more like a jug). Does any one else remember this?

 

[A. Muse]

The mention of the various supermarkets and their predecessors makes me wonder 'WHAT IF?

My great grandfather was a grocer and cheesemonger in East London from the 1870's to the 1890's in Hoxton, Mile End, Leytonstone and Plaistow (not all at the same time), and with 3 bankruptcies making it look as if his business acumen was not of the best. If he had been a little more successful where would the family business be now?

In a strange twist, in the early 1950's my mother used to shop at a grocery store, part of a chain called 'Pearks' on Barking Road Plaistow. This shop was the last one that my Great Grandfather traded from in the 1890's, although I didn't discover this until a few years ago. Other stores in the area when I was a child were 'Stitchers' and later 'Victor Value'.

 

[Margery]

If he had been a little more successful where would the family business be now?

Hmm. My husband's grandfather (apparently) did quite well as a gold miner in the late 1800's. He set up a transport business with his three eldest sons - including my father-in-law, named "..... Bros". It was all horse drawn vehicles but they progressed to motor vehicles. A successful business, it seems, then the old man died, one son joined the army and the other two fell out never to speak again. We often wonder if it would have developed into a national transport business if the grandfather has appointed one of the sons his successor.

 

[peter]

Two of my direct ancestors were grocers, and both went bankrupt, one of them spending time in a debtors prison. What you have to remember is that shopkeepers were expected to extend credit to their regular customers, and if they failed to pay even the most well-run business might fail.

 

[At home in NZ]

Two of my direct ancestors were grocers, and both went bankrupt, one of them spending time in a debtors prison. What you have to remember is that shopkeepers were expected to extend credit to their regular customers, and if they failed to pay even the most well-run business might fail.

No bankruptcy as far as I know, I'm sure my mum would have told me if there was and I haven't found any evidence of such.
In 1891 my great grandfather was a fruiterer and greengrocer in (the famous) Sidney Street in Mile End. In 1901 he was still in business at the same address. In 1911 he was at a different address his Occupation was Costermonger. still on 'own account'.
None of his children followed him in the business, my grandfather was a fish porter or fish monger depending on which record you look at. I do know he worked at Billingsgate and would often take home shellfish, shrimps and the odd larger crustacean.

 

[Bob Spiers]

What you have to remember is that shopkeepers were expected to extend credit to their regular customers, and if they failed to pay even the most well-run business might fail.

Yes, and not just Shopkeepers but getting paid for goods or services was important to many tradesmen. Particularly when striving to be paid by prominent wealthy citizens (how do you think they became wealthy?) Or servicing the Aristocracy (many of whom were not wealthy and paid little heed to paying their bills). In fact it even applied to those who thought themselves lucky enough to be awarded the Royal Warrant. As I now relate.

A distant ancestor on my maternal side who I shall refer to as 'R' was a Master Chimney Sweep (1809-1880) employing other Sweeps. He operated in and around Worcester and had the contract to sweep the chimneys of Witley Court, Worcester. In 1842 the Dowager Queen Adelaide (widow of William IV) took up tenancy at Witley Court and lived there from 1842 -1846. Shortly after 'R' was allowed to display the Royal Coat of Arms for his Chimney Sweep services which he proudly used when advertising and the words..."To her Royal Majesty the Queen Dowager".

Now the rest of my story comes second hand from a relative of mine, herself a Family Historian and a direct descendant of 'R'. She learned via family hand-down that despite many times 'R' trying to get paid for his services (and no doubt Witley Court had many chimneys) those responsible in the Dowager Queen's household for paying the bills failed to respond. In fact the story goes that when he tried to get paid he was met with the attitude..."you have Royal patronage and still want to charge for your services"?

My relative has cautioned to treat the tale as apocryphal and certainly has found nothing outside of the family to support the story, but nevertheless she thinks it likely has foundation on the principle 'no smoke without fire' . Certainly it was a fact of life that many small (and not so small) businesses failed because they could not get paid by the 'well-to-do' and nobility, thus allowing debts to mount up and bankruptcy/Debtors Prison looming.

Post Script: 'R' 's business survived the relatively short period or Adelaide's residency and he lived on until 1880. (Queen Adelaide died in 1849 and was buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor). After his death R's wife took over the business and became a Mistress Chimney Sweep (not too many of those to the pound).