Convict brothers transported VDL -more information needed on one

[jorghes]

My information on (Mary) Ann Green's birth year was always an estimate of 1828 and the place of birth and parentage name unknown and a death date of 1898. (This was a temporary thing whilst I pursued the main character George). Now my attention has turned to Ann Green I discover in other Ancestry Trees an almost universal take up of this information - born 1828 England and dying 1898 (Richmond, Australia). There are exceptions on birth however with one a birth year of 1813 in Wales (and others picking up the date without a place name). Another shows 1835 Sommerton, Somerset

The Tree that records Ann's birth year of 1813 Wales also shows her death date as 1872 in Cobden , so I will try to make contact with the Tree owner. He/she may merely have estimated this based on logic but will see where that leads, and meanwhile will investigate further in my own way.

It's an interesting trail - The 1898 death in Richmond matches the Ann Green on the Victorian BDMs, but that doesn't seem to match the seeming legality of George's marriage to Catherine Williams (nor the nagging question why would her death be registered in Richmond, an inner eastern suburb of Melbourne, some 100s of kms away from Cobden or Warrnambool? - which is in the west of the state)

There is of course a chance that her surname is misspelt on the Victorian BDM records (I had a brief search outside of your 1898 and the only other "Ann Green" doesn't seem completely correct either!), which might limit the number of "Ann Westbury"s that turn up in a death search. The other possibility is of course that she is listed as "Mary", although "Ann" seems to have been her preferred name according to all the birth entries.

 

[Bob Spiers]

It's an interesting trail - The 1898 death in Richmond matches the Ann Green on the Victorian BDMs, but that doesn't seem to match the seeming legality of George's marriage to Catherine Williams (nor the nagging question why would her death be registered in Richmond, an inner eastern suburb of Melbourne, some 100s of kms away from Cobden or Warrnambool? - which is in the west of the state)

There is of course a chance that her surname is misspelt on the Victorian BDM records (I had a brief search outside of your 1898 and the only other "Ann Green" doesn't seem completely correct either!), which might limit the number of "Ann Westbury"s that turn up in a death search. The other possibility is of course that she is listed as "Mary", although "Ann" seems to have been her preferred name according to all the birth entries.

STOP PRESS!!! I think we have to hold our horse Jorghes, look at this piece of information JUST unearthed from my files which bent on other matters at the time I filed for future reference. A lady Researcher (it always seems to be a lady) suggested that perhaps (only perhaps) I had confused the son with the father and the fact that Junior was the one who married Catherine Williams! She meant that the George Frederick Jr (1854) born to George Frederick Snr (1821) & Ann Green had married a Catherine Williams in 1875. That is quite a bombshell and although I made a note as I always do in my Tribal pages, it so went against the information I had received and seemingly confirmed myself, I did not return to check it out. Now I wish I had.

That is as far as I go for now but if you think about it, it changes everything. All this about siring 21 children may just be pie in the sky and arrived at by confusing two identically named individuals; one the son of the father. To add insult to injury George Frederick Jr and Catherine Williams (if the information is correct) named one of their sons George Frederick Westbury (I shall have to call him GFW III).

To save crowding the Forum I will sent by private message the extended note the Researcher sent concerning GF Jnr who was a lay preacher (which considering the tone so far makes a change). I think it will likely add to the authenticity of the information and see if you agree.

 

[jorghes]

STOP PRESS!!! I think we have to hold our horse Jorghes, look at this piece of information JUST unearthed from my files which bent on other matters at the time I filed for future reference. A lady Researcher (it always seems to be a lady) suggested that perhaps (only perhaps) I had confused the son with the father and the fact that Junior was the one who married Catherine Williams! She meant that the George Frederick Jr (1854) born to George Frederick Snr (1821) & Ann Green had married a Catherine Williams in 1875. That is quite a bombshell and although I made a note as I always do in my Tribal pages, it so went against the information I had received and seemingly confirmed myself, I did not return to check it out. Now I wish I had.

That is as far as I go for now but if you think about it, it changes everything. All this about siring 21 children may just be pie in the sky and arrived at by confusing two identically named individuals; one the son of the father. To add insult to injury George Frederick Jr and Catherine Williams (if the information is correct) named one of their sons George Frederick Westbury (I shall have to call him GFW III).

To save crowding the Forum I will sent by private message the extended note the Researcher sent concerning GF Jnr who was a lay preacher (which considering the tone so far makes a change). I think it will likely add to the authenticity of the information and see if you agree.

The marriage certificate for George Frederick (Jr) and Catherine Williams from 1875 might confirm or deny this. Because it will have to list the parents of the groom.

But yes... wow! What a huge change (and so much easier because then Ann Green could have very well have died in 1898 with no problems!) Also wipes bigamy off the table! That would be a brilliant fix, since at 21, George Jnr would have been old enough to be marrying Catherine in 1875...

Ooh, to have this issue solved in one sweep! That marriage cert!

 

[Bob Spiers]

Ooh, to have this issue solved in one sweep! That marriage cert!

Yes agree and will follow through when I have time. I have now sent you a private message with the further notes provided to me.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I now have the marriage Schedule details for George Frederick Westbury of Melbourne marrying Catherine Eliza Williams of Syndey on 25th December 1875 in Ech???*. Most importantly have confirmation that George's father was indeed George Frederick Westbury and Ann Westbury (Green). So confirming what I already believed would be the case with the new information; that 9 of the children at least should be re-assigned to the son.

I will try to insert both extracts which go across the page on the original Schedule but not sure whether they can be read but will give it a try.



*cannot make out the place name perhaps Jorghes can help. Looks like Ech**ica. And the district where the wedding took place (not shown in the extract) looks like Roduly?

 

[VTinOZ]

Hi Bob,
There is an obit on Trove for GFW junior. Looks like they moved to Western Australia.
OBITUARY. MR. G. F. WESTBURY.
Western Mail (Perth, WA : 1885 - 1954) Saturday 1 August 1903 p 17 Article
Matches to this Death on WA BDM (Western Australia)
Westbury George Frederick 48 George Frederick Green Anne Richmond Victoria1099 1903

WA Metropolitan Cemeteries Board Has GFW named as Benji Westbury & in same plot at Karrakatta Cemetery is a Catherine Eliza Westbury d.1922.
Her death
The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954) Friday 9 June 1922 p 1 Family Notices

See also a daughter... The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954) Wednesday 17 July 1946 p 1 Family Notices, & son, also GFW in 1941 The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954) Monday 4 August 1941 p 1 Family Notices

Hope this advances your quest a little,
Regards, Vicki

 

[Bob Spiers]

Hope this advances your quest a little,
Regards, Vicki

Thank you VT, it does and it has. Quite amazing the information coming in via Oz. I did relay to Jorghes in a private message something about GFW junior and his travels as a lay preacher which were passed on to me a year or so ago, but got buried I'm afraid. Here is the gist of it:

Based in Melbourne at St Jude's Carlton Melbourne he went to the country to Greta & Glenrowan. He moved to WA 1899, Denmark and then Wagerup. On to Kaalgoorlie where he was a Sunday school Superintendent. Finally North Freemantle where he eventually died in 1903.

With the new information you and Jorghes have provided I can dot the 'i's and cross the 't' s and am really getting somewhere. Quite exciting really.

 

[Bob Spiers]

cannot make out the place name perhaps Jorghes can help. Looks like Ech**ica.

I see from other information the place name was likely Euchuca, Victoria, Australia...unless anyone says differently

 

[jorghes]

I see from other information the place name was likely Euchuca, Victoria, Australia...unless anyone says differently

It would be Echuca, yes. Which is interesting in itself, since it's on the border with NSW over 400km north of Warrnambool.

I'm not sure about the where the ceremony took place, I'd have to see the writing itself. "roduly" doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

[AdrienneQ]

I have loved reading about his investigation. Thanks to all that have been part of it
Can't wait for the next episode.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I'd have to see the writing itself. "roduly" doesn't ring any bells for me.

No sooner said than done.....

 

[VTinOZ]

The marriage took place at 'Private Residence, High St, Echuca'.
The district will be RODNEY as in the county of Rodney, which I know nothing about, didn't even know Victoria had counties, but will be the schedule D district. The registrars must have been county based at that time.
I found a reference on State Library of Vic website... I was looking for parish maps but found this instead...
"Town and part of Borough of Echuca, Parishes of Echuca North and Wharparilla, Counties of Rodney and Gunbower [cartographic material] / drawn and reproduced at the Department of Lands and Survey, Melbourne, VIctoria, 13.12.40."

Regards, Vicki

 

[Bob Spiers]

The district will be RODNEY as in the county of Rodney, which I know nothing about, didn't even know Victoria had counties,

Isn't it amazing what one can learn when delving into archives. My sister living in Victoria often refers to 'Shires' (as used in the Hobbit & Lord of the Rings) and explains that is the equivalent of Counties in Australia; well Victoria anyway. I shall have to tell her when we next Skype that Counties were certainly once in vogue. Thanks Vicki

 

[Bob Spiers]

I have loved reading about his investigation. Thanks to all that have been part of it
Can't wait for the next episode.

Thanks Adrienne. Coming as soon as I have sorted out the (now only) 4 additional children born to Jane Walker, and perhaps see if I can find out more about Daniel Jr after his Cockatoo Island incarceration. But definitely getting there.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Where is B' Yong in Victoria? Not sure whether the apostrophe indicates missing letters or that is the actual name. It is recorded as a place of birth for one of Jane Walker's children (Harry George Westbury) and I want to see if the place of birth offers any clue identifying the 'George Westbury' father. I know I could pay to receive a download pdf copy of the birth Schedule, but they are not cheap and if anything like the Death & Marriage Schedules I've paid for often reveal little more than the free search information.

On an after thought I checked the other children as well and it seems to indicate someone who travelled a lot (I hope it wasn't the lay preacher!) Here are the places of birth in date order

1856 Harry George: B'yong
1859 John Joseph: Ararat
1863 Edward Frederick: Scot
1868 Mary Jane: Buninyong

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Bob Spiers]

1856 Harry George: B'yong

1868 Mary Jane: Buninyong

Just twigged, perhaps they are one and the same and if so close to Ballarat. I have found Ararat to the East of Ballarat so that leaves Scot and all Google earth can come up with is Scots Church in Melbourne. (Oh dear). And there is a Scots head in NSW but I think not.

Victoria knowledge required please.

 

[Bob Spiers]

It would be Echuca, yes. Which is interesting in itself, since it's on the border with NSW over 400km north of Warrnambool.

Catherine Eliza Williams came from Camperdown which I learn is a suburb of Sydney, NSW. But now we know she married the son and not the father perhaps marrying so far removed from Warrnambool or Cobden is not so strange. GFW Jr was born Melbourne 1854 and married aged 21. Perhaps he had begun his lay preaching at this age or was accompanying another learning the ropes. Either way I suppose on that basis Echuca is as good a place as any for them to marry and indeed remain for a while as their first two children were also born Euchuca. By the way the second child was another George Frederick Westbury (1878) who I show as GFW III in my Tree.

 

[jorghes]

Where is B' Yong in Victoria? Not sure whether the apostrophe indicates missing letters or that is the actual name. It is recorded as a place of birth for one of Jane Walker's children (Harry George Westbury) and I want to see if the place of birth offers any clue identifying the 'George Westbury' father. I know I could pay to receive a download pdf copy of the birth Schedule, but they are not cheap and if anything like the Death & Marriage Schedules I've paid for often reveal little more than the free search information.

On an after thought I checked the other children as well and it seems to indicate someone who travelled a lot (I hope it wasn't the lay preacher!) Here are the places of birth in date order

1856 Harry George: B'yong
1859 John Joseph: Ararat
1863 Edward Frederick: Scot
1868 Mary Jane: Buninyong

Thoughts anyone?

Looking at a current map of Victoria, your "Scot" is either "Scotsburn" or "Scotchman's Lead" both close to Buninyong - and yes, I'd say both are Buninyong (I'd probably go with Scotsburn, but without seeing the birth register who would know.) Given that information, I would doubt that your George Westbury Snr from Warrnambool was making regular trips north to Ballarat and Ararat frequently enough for a relationship with Jane Walker, perhaps there's another George Westbury around. Might do to check for a George Westbury in Victoria's death records?

Echuca makes sense for a lay preacher, since it was the biggest inland port in the 1860s onwards (would have to check timelines, lots of information on Echuca around), and was on the border between NSW and Victoria. (Moama is NSW's town on the opposite side of the Murray river from Echuca and you can often see it referred to as "Echuca-Moama").

Just as a note of interest - if you get far enough to use the Australian Electoral Roll (which start in 1903) as a resource (which is the best "census" replacement in Australia since we destroy our census information), it gets very confusing as sometimes it's hard to tell whether or not they are using the electorate or the shire/council for the "county" position. Not that Australians really use either, place and state is usually enough for an Australian - probably because the states are so large, and the shire names and electorates change reasonably frequently.
**"Shires" just refers to the local council area. The words shire and council can be a bit interchangeable, especially in the suburbs. Some of the shire areas in the country can be quite large.

I didn't know much about the "county" thing either, I've seen it written on register pages, but really haven't paid much attention since I am always looking for the place name!


Edit:
Had a quick look at the Electoral Rolls (ancestry has them for searching) for Western Australia, and a George Frederick Westbury pops up for 1903 living in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia; looking at the page, he lives at 20 George St, and his occupation is listed as a contractor.

Unfortunately it's not good for anyone under the age of 21 (at least from 1903 - eventually it drops to 18, but I'm not sure when), and because of the laws at the time, hopeless if you're looking for anyone of colour (the indigenous peoples didn't get the right to vote until 1962). But there are some things you can gain from it.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Had a quick look at the Electoral Rolls (ancestry has them for searching) for Western Australia, and a George Frederick Westbury pops up for 1903 living in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia; looking at the page, he lives at 20 George St, and his occupation is listed as a contractor

Almost certainly GFW Junior who we know from the notes I received from another Researcher (but only just uncovered) ...'moved to Kalgoorie and in November 1899 started work at Sutcliffs. (no details about who they were). The family joined him there and they were all involved with the church, GFW being Sunday School Superintendent of All Saints and a zealous worker in the parish'.

It goes on to say '...uncertain when the family moved to John Street, North Freemantle but he died there in 1903 (actually 1st August 1903) working as manager of J.M. Ferguson Ltd, North Freemantle' (again no details)

I would imagine the Electoral Rolls of 1903 for Kalgoorie would show GFW even if he had technically moved to Freemantle the same year. So we have a Kalgoorie address and we know he was a 'Contractor' (which is capable of many interpretations of course).

 

[jorghes]

Sutcliffes will be a shop of some sort - possibly hardware, but could have been a general store. Unless they kept in business, might be difficult to figure out what they are or were.

As for the electoral roll, it depends on when it was taken and at what time of year he moved. (and possibly when and if he was the one who needed to update the roll). Nowadays you're expected to update it yourself, but it is always possible in the early days it was only updated in the event of an election. You'd have to research how it worked then. (Not surprising it was created after 1901 - Australia didn't "officially" exist before then).

You can also find which of George Snr's children stayed in Cobden, of course. And you can see if you can find Daniel - who knows if he was still around in 1903.