Can you find William and his children?

[At home in NZ]

The earliest record I can find of my great, great, grandfather William Henry Maynard is his second marriage to Elizabeth Saunders (some records are for Sanders) on 20 May 1860.

The next record is the 1861 census, William and Elizabeth with 4 children at 39 Dunk Street, Stepney. Registration District Whitechapel, Middlesex.
The fourth child Louisa is their child, the other three are from William’s first marriage.

I have never been able to find a baptism record for William Henry Maynard or any birth records for the children of his first marriage; William and Elizabeth.

I have used the GRO and other sites and tried every variation of spelling that I could think of without success.

I have a birth cert for Charles, his mother was Elizabeth Smith. The birth was registered in East London and his father’s occupation was a dock labourer. I am sceptical, although have been assured by another Ancestry member that it is the correct record and it does fit with the declared age in 1861.

I have never been able to find William's first marriage either.

Every few months I look at this ‘brick wall’ with fresh eyes but they never come up with anything new.

There are members of this forum who are far more experienced than I am at research, perhaps one or some of you can help me?

 

[peter]

Although he was born before 1837 the advice in my recent Masterclass can be applied to solve the mystery.

 

[Tim]

Do you have this child? Hannah Maynard

 

[Tim]

Or this one, Henry Alfred?

 

[At home in NZ]

Do you have this child? Hannah Maynard

Or this one, Henry Alfred?

Thanks Tim, I have both of them in my tree.
However my real problem is finding a record of their father William, and, two children by his first marriage.

Although he was born before 1837 the advice in my recent Masterclass can be applied to solve the mystery.

Every time I gone back to this 'brick wall' I have read this until I am blue in the face, it has never helped.

 

[peter]

Every time I gone back to this 'brick wall' I have read this until I am blue in the face, it has never helped.

Perhaps that's because for it to help, you have to let go of some of the things that you believe? It seems very likely that his name wasn't always William Henry Maynard - that would certainly explain why you can't find any other records.

Have you found the death if his first wife? If you haven't that would be a very good reason for him to use a different name.

 

[At home in NZ]

Have you found the death if his first wife?

Yes I have and I have the death cert. She died in the same house that William and his second wife lived in at the time of their marriage and at the time of the 1861 census.

I can accept not being able to find one person's baptism/birth but three in the same census is extremely puzzling.
Download of the 1861 census is attached.

 

[Pauline]

I have the death cert.

Can you tell us when she’d died, and how old was she? Did she die in childbirth? I take it her name was Elizabeth, but did she have a middle name?

 

[At home in NZ]

Can you tell us when she’d died, and how old was she? Did she die in childbirth? I take it her name was Elizabeth, but did she have a middle name?

Her name was Elizabeth. Date of death 27 Aug 1859. Cause Phthisis, Described as wife of William Maynard carman, servant. Died at 39 Dunk Street, age 25. registered at Whitechapel.
I have her burial record, it's non conformist.
I believe she was Elizabeth Smith and her birth was recorded as Quaker, dob 20 Aug 1833.

 

[Pauline]

Thanks for the additional information. If William & Elizabeth did marry, then her age might offer some clues so I will see if I can find anything useful.

I have found what appear to be marriages for the 3 children of the first marriage - do you have these? The one I have found for the son William (1883) shows him as a widower, and I found two for the daughter Elizabeth (1879 & 1894) - all show the father as William Maynard, carman. Charles' marriage was in 1876 - he was a baker and his brother William is shown as an ivory turner.

 

[Pauline]

I have her burial record, it's non conformist

I don't think the burial necessarily indicates she was non-conformist - it was a private cemetery opened to cater for burials when churchyards were full.

 

[peter]

I don't think the burial necessarily indicates she was non-conformist - it was a private cemetery opened to cater for burials when churchyards were full.

These days private cemeteries normally have separate areas for different religious denominations - I don't know whether that was true in the 19th century.

Some records of Quaker births are online - indeed some of my own twigs are recorded in Quaker records, although it was also noted that the individuals concerned were not actually members of the meeting.

But whether or not his first wife was a Quaker, their marriage - if there was one - should have been recorded by the GRO. If they didn't marry then the children were probably registered under the mother's maiden name, and if that was indeed Smith, that would certainly explain why you haven't found them.

 

[Pauline]

I will see if I can find anything useful

No luck, I'm afraid! I found the Maynard marriages I mentioned above and, in case William's first wife was Elizabeth Smith and if so, that she was the one born 1833 (father Richard), I followed up on Richard Smith's family a bit. But I expect you have done this kind of thing already, and I didn't find anything useful from it.

I couldn't find any evidence that the children of William Maynard's first wife were registered or baptised as Smiths but it isn't the easiest names to search on!

 

[Helen7]

I have never been able to find a baptism record for William Henry Maynard or any birth records for the children of his first marriage; William and Elizabeth.

A completely random thought: Are you sure that all the 3 older children of William in 1861 were children of his first wife? Is it possible that Elizabeth might be the illegitimate child of his 2nd wife - there is an Elizabeth Saunders birth registered with no mother's maiden name in Whitechapel, 4th qtr of 1857 (so would be aged 3 in 1861 census). Probably wildly off-beam, but just a thought. Elizabeth would have named William as her father on marriage, as the father she grew up with.

 

[Pauline]

I forgot to mention that there is a baptism of a William Henry Maynard in Hammersmith (which is close to Chelsea) on 28 Aug 1830. The father was a Henry Maynard shoemaker - so not a William Henry, but maybe one to look into, if you haven't already?

 

[A. Muse]

Is it possible that the first wife you are looking at is actually a second wife and the children are from a first wife? Only a suggestion as the mortality rates in the area were high at this time.

 

[At home in NZ]

No luck, I'm afraid! I found the Maynard marriages I mentioned above and, in case William's first wife was Elizabeth Smith and if so, that she was the one born 1833 (father Richard), I followed up on Richard Smith's family a bit. But I expect you have done this kind of thing already, and I didn't find anything useful from it.

I couldn't find any evidence that the children of William Maynard's first wife were registered or baptised as Smiths but it isn't the easiest names to search on!

Thank you Pauline
Richard Smith and his wife's ancestry is very interesting, it led me to a restaurant in The Strand, London and to a man who almost became Lord Mayor of London and attended the opening of Tower Bridge.

baptism of a William Henry Maynard in Hammersmith (which is close to Chelsea) on 28 Aug 1830. The father was a Henry Maynard shoemaker - so not a William Henry, but maybe one to look into, if you haven't already?

Yes, I followed through on that, not the right man.
Even more puzzling, throughout the census records his birthplace is Chelsea until the 1901 census when it is St George, Hanover Square. and yes, I have tried that too.

Are you sure that all the 3 older children of William in 1861 were children of his first wife? Is it possible that Elizabeth might be the illegitimate child of his 2nd wife - there is an Elizabeth Saunders birth registered with no mother's maiden name in Whitechapel, 4th qtr of 1857 (so would be aged 3 in 1861 census). Probably wildly off-beam, but just a thought.

Thank you Helen
I had assumed right from the time I found the 1861 census that those 3 children were of a previous wife of William's.
I must admit I hadn't thought about Elizabeth being illegitimate, I'll order the PDF and see what transpires.

I have searched the GRO for William Saunders and Charles Saunders, Whitechapel, no luck.

Is it possible that the first wife you are looking at is actually a second wife and the children are from a first wife? Only a suggestion as the mortality rates in the area were high at this time.

Thank you A. Muse
It could be, but I should still be looking for children with the last name of Maynard.

 

[Pauline]

I guess we are all agreeing with you then - your William Henry Maynard is playing hard to find!

Yes, I followed through on that, not the right man.

I presume this 'wrong' William Henry Maynard is also the one that married Eliza Winbolt in 1852?

I wondered if he may have been in Hammersmith Workhouse in 1841 census with his brother Frederick, Frederick being apprenticed into the merchant navy a few years later and ending up in Hartlepool.

 

[At home in NZ]

I guess we are all agreeing with you then - your William Henry Maynard is playing hard to find!

As are his children!

I presume this 'wrong' William Henry Maynard is also the one that married Eliza Winbolt in 1852?

I've looked into this a few times too and dismissed it. Sorry I can't remember why, my notes are handwritten somewhere or other.

I've also seen trees where there is a William Henry Maynard who married an Elizabeth Constantin, again not the right people.

Hammersmith Workhouse in 1841 census with his brother Frederick, Frederick being apprenticed into the merchant navy a few years later and ending up in Hartlepool.

Oddly, I have this record in my Shoebox because Frederick is a name that runs through the generations, however 'where born' is not Middlesex and Chelsea was in Middlesex then.
How did you manage to trace Frederick?

I also have an 1841 census recording a William Raynard, looked carefully and is definitely Maynard, born in foreign parts, I have no real idea how to trace that one down the years. Plus, there appears to be a brother Edward which is not a name that comes down the generations

 

[jorghes]

I will presume (!) that you have seen the marriage register on Ancestry that gives William Henry Maynard's father as another William Henry Maynard and that he and Elizabeth Saunders were living in the same house on 39 Dunk St when they were married.

I noted that while looking at documents at one point Maynard was mistranscribed as "Maquard", and on the 1861 census that you shared I honestly thought it looked a little like "Heywood" (but only for a second). So perhaps go out on a limb to see if you can find mistranscriptions?

There is a William Maynard, aged 11, in the 1841 census, with no other Maynards (just a bunch of other children around the same sage) at Vincent Court, St John The Evangelist, who was born in Middlesex. This could be the one you're looking for, although it doesn't help for his family. [Ancestry has the entry as Piece 737, book 16, folio 12, page 17].