Can a person's estate be disposed of without a will?

[Bazza43]

A putative ancestor of mine was John ROBNSON, whom I believe for various reasons must have died between 1803 and 1809, I have found two wills for John ROBINSON and received the copies from the Borthwick institute, one who died in Jan 1804, another who died in January 1807. These are the only two John ROBINSON probate records for Sheffield between the above dates in the Prerogative and Exchequer Courts of York, I suppose it's worth checking the PCC wills, other than that there's no sign of him leaving anything.
Could he have just said "are you happy to divide my estate equally among you" and having obtained agreement, not have had to have Administration of his estate?

 

[Pauline]

Could he have just said "are you happy to divide my estate equally among you" and having obtained agreement, not have had to have Administration of his estate?

He may not have said anything, and if he didn't write a will, it was down to his closest relative(s) to discover if administration was needed, and often it may not have been.

It all depends on the value and nature of a person's assets. Even today, probate may not be necessary for people with small estates, whether or not they left a will.

 

[Bazza43]

probate may not be necessary for people with small estates, whether or not they left a will

Hi Pauline, lovely to see you on this forum too!
I could be wrong, but I thought he would have had more than enough to have needed to leave a will.

I have another Sheffield family where no-one seems to have left a will, at least up to my great-grandmother who did. But that's another story, and I need to investigate more closely. All these other things like will might be proved finally thirty years after the death ....

 

[Pauline]

I could be wrong, but I thought he would have had more than enough to have needed to leave a will.

There are no hard and fast rules as to who did and who didn’t leave a will. Also, some of those who may have intended to write a will simply left it too late.

 

[Bazza43]

There are no hard and fast rules as to who did and who didn’t leave a will.

Yes but what I really need to know is whether the law said that if there was no valid will, did there have to be an Adminstration. Or did this simply occur is one of the potential beneficiaries applied for it?

 

[At home in NZ]

Yes but what I really need to know is whether the law said that if there was no valid will, did there have to be an Adminstration. Or did this simply occur is one of the potential beneficiaries applied for it?

I have recently had occasion to look into what might be a fraudulent will, it was 'made' in England, dated after the original will.
The deceased gentleman had been advised to make the original will because he would die intestate if he didn't and all his estate would go to the government. He did not have any relatives at all and his partner had pre-deceased him.
The current rules can be found at the GRO website here

 

[Pauline]

Yes but what I really need to know is whether the law said that if there was no valid will, did there have to be an Adminstration.

No, there was - and is - no legal requirement to obtain a grant of representation (probate or administration) when someone dies. It all depends on whether the assets can be accessed and administered without one or not. Today, for example, if the deceased owned a house in his/her sole name, then a grant would be needed before it could be sold or ownership transferred, but some banks will allow access to low value accounts with just a death certificate.

 

[Pauline]

I should add that what I wrote above applies in England and Wales (which is what we have been talking about here). Things may differ in other probate jurisdictions.

 

[Bob Spiers]

No, there was - and is - no legal requirement to obtain a grant of representation (probate or administration) when someone dies. It all depends on whether the assets can be accessed and administered without one or not. Today, for example, if the deceased owned a house in his/her sole name, then a grant would be needed before it could be sold or ownership transferred, but some banks will allow access to low value accounts with just a death certificate.

Pauline's information is factual. When my father died (back in the 80's) he left no will and we (myself and two sisters) spent a deal of time uncovering his 'hidey holes' for Building Society Passbooks (or whatever they were called) and a cash box hidden up a bedroom chimney. In the end all it required was a death certificate and a visit to three Building Societies where, after providing identity (with a Passport as I recall) each account was identified in my own name with the annotation of 'Executor of ...'

We sold his car to a neighbour and as he had lived in a Council House in Birmingham (known as a Municipal House) for most of his life, no need for Probate. On the advice of the Bank I chose back home in Kent to hold the transferred funds (also as Executor of ...) I applied for Administration which required a visit to a County Council office in Maidstone. After a week or so, Letters of Administration were granted. After paying funeral and Cemetery costs (stone engraving etc) I gave each sister a third share cheque and transferred my own share to my own bank and closed the 'Executor' account.

Looking back and after grieving the loss of our father (our mother had died many years previous), it was a fairly easy, although convoluted process, to sort out his affairs, although modest because property was not involved. To this day we each remember what we did with 'Dad's' money!

Edit: I should have said I visited a Probate Office which was housed in the same building as the County Council Office.

 

[Pauline]

Pauline's information is factual

Are you suggesting my information sometimes isn't?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Are you suggesting my information sometimes isn't?

Would I ever?

 

[peter]

Yes but what I really need to know is whether the law said that if there was no valid will, did there have to be an Adminstration. Or did this simply occur is one of the potential beneficiaries applied for it?

Probate is about formalising the transfer of assets from the deceased to the beneficiaries. If this could be done informally (or if the assets were disposed of prior to death) there may not be any record. It's just the same today.

Wills can be very useful, but the vast majority of my ancestors either didn't leave a will, or it didn't go to probate.

 

[cfbandit]

Thank you for posting this question. I was really wondering what was going on when I couldn't find my 2nd great grand's probate from 1938, or his son's in 1950. But I found one for his daughter in 1963, so I'm thinking they just played pass the estate informally until she was the last of the last left in England (as his other son was my great grandfather in Canada).

 

[peter]

Thank you for posting this question. I was really wondering what was going on when I couldn't find my 2nd great grand's probate from 1938, or his son's in 1950. But I found one for his daughter in 1963, so I'm thinking they just played pass the estate informally until she was the last of the last left in England (as his other son was my great grandfather in Canada).

Under half of wills went to probate in the 20th century - Findmypast have 42m death index entries from 1900-1980 but only 13m probate index entries. In earlier centuries the proportion would have been far lower - finding a will for one of my direct ancestors is rare, and most of the insights I've gained have been from the wills of members of the extended family.

 

[Pauline]

Under half of wills went to probate in the 20th century

I presume you mean estates rather than wills as, of course, plenty of people didn’t- and still don’t - make wills. Also, some of those who died would have been minors.

I happen to know that both my maternal grandparents made wills but no probate was obtained for them. It’s a shame as I would have liked to have seen the wills, but where there’s no probate wills are not publicly available.

 

[peter]

I presume you mean estates rather than wills as, of course, plenty of people didn’t- and still don’t - make wills.

I did mean estates - and of course, the figure I quoted would have included administrations and also some multiple entries.

some of those who died would have been minors.

That's true, but I said under half, and on the bare figures I quoted it's less than one-third. In a sample year only one-eighth of the deaths were of people under 21, so the proportion of over 21s whose estates went to probate would have been only a little over one-third.

Another factor to consider is that the estates of single people would be more likely to go to probate than those of married people with children - a single person would be less likely to share ownership of a property, or transfer their assets before death. Finally, some people whose estates were probated in England & Wales would have died elsewhere.

Overall the chance of finding a direct ancestor in the probate index is probably around one-third.