Birth Certificate Conundrum

[Laurie Jonas]

For some time I've been trying to obtain an England & Wales birth certificate for my paternal grandfather, born 3rd May 1897. His name was Percival Sidney Augustus Jonas! A simple task you would think with a name like that and for someone that was well within my living memory. Apparently not!

He was one of 11 children that were born (between 1894-1921) and raised in South Wimbledon, Surrey, within the registration district of Kingston. The certificates for his 10 siblings I have sourced without difficulty.

His actual birth date is supported by the family bible, death certificate & school registers. His birth year is supported by numerous other documents, which include his marriage certificate, 1901 & 1911 censuses (these calculate to an 1898 date but he would have been a year older than shown shortly after each census was taken), as well as various Great War documents. He wasn't baptised until 3-3-1911 where he is registered as an 'adult'. Unfortunately it doesn't state his date of birth.

To date I have been unable to find an appropriate entry, using name variants, in the GRO indexes at Ancestry, FMP or Family Search. Searching under his mother's maiden name of Maw also turned up nothing. I have also contacted the staff at Wandsworth, Merton & Kingston Registry Offices, again to no avail.

On the death of my grandmother in 2001 my father passed on to me all her surviving paperwork & documents, but again his birth certificate was not amongst them. Is it possible to have gone through the 20th century without one! Surely not.

 

[jorghes]

This reminds me of an error that I found in a common assumption about my family tree - my grandfather had an older brother who died as an infant, and it was generally accepted on Ancestry that my grandfather was born in 1910 and his older brother in 1909. I knew that this was incorrect, as my grandfather was born in 1909, as backed up by his baptism certificate and later his birth certificate. So that meant that his older brother, as accepted by the general consensus on Ancestry, must be wrong, as there was no way both could have been born in 1909, especially since my grandfather was not a twin. I thought that the name was correct for a long time, but there was no register entry appropriate for the year that I thought was acceptable (1908).

The name was incorrect and his brother was in fact born in 1907, and on his birth certificate, his surname had been hyphenated with his middle name. (I ended up just searching the year after the parents marriage for their surname within the correct area and came across a likely individual). His father had "Jones" as a middle name and thus was written in on the birth certificate as "Jones-...." rather than the named being added as a middle name of both him and his father as it was meant to be. I have corrected the entry in my family tree, but as far as I know, the error of my grandfather's birth year and the name and birth year of his older brother still exist on many Ancestry trees.

My point is perhaps something was mistranscribed in the original registry entry or his name was in a different order or something along those lines.

As for not having a birth certificate, it is most definitely possible not to have one in the 20th and 21st century. Neither my older brother nor I have a birth certificate and while my mother, my brother and myself have attempted to source a birth certificate at different times, none of us have managed to successfully source one and instead just receive a run-around by various agencies (Births, Deaths & Marriages etc).

There is a register entry for both my older brother and I, as we have extracts to prove it, and even though the extract tells you more than the basic "a male child called ----- was born", (mine tells you the names of both my parents, the name of my older brother and his age, the date and place of my birth and the date I was registered); it does not mean that I can access a birth certificate (nor does it count).

Instead of my birth certificate, I use my passport to prove my existence in official circumstances, I have had a passport since I was 2. But I suppose, technically, as my extract does not count, I can't really prove my existence in a way that would satisfy family historians! (I also have a couple of cousins who also would most likely not have birth certificates).

 

[Heather]

This is a strange one Laurie, with a name like that one would think it would be so easy to find. Looking at the BMDs on FreeBMD for Kingston there is a marriage for Sidney Frederick Jonas to a Topsy Grace Maw Sept qtr 1894 in Kingston are these PSA's parents? There are 11 births in Kingston 1894 to 1921 with the name Jonas, the last two with MMN Maw. I presume that the first one in Jun qtr for Gerald John is not for your family. After him there is Grace 1895, Emily May 1896, Lily Maskie 1898 she died June qtr 1900 age 1, then Archer Albert 1900, Maud Gladys 1902, Frederick Beecham 1905, Frank Ernest 1907, Elsie D 1910, Pearl M 1919 MMN Maw and Arthur R 1921 MMN Maw are these all your family? There is a gap where PSA would be and another gap between 1910 and 1919 maybe because of the war. I am a lateral thinker and love a challenge, I will have another look for him when I have more time, unless someone else can find him before then.

 

[Heather]

Hi again Laurie, you say you are on Ancestry, have you trawled through the church records for Surrey ? I know you said that PSA was baptised in 1911 as an adult but he may have been baptised as a child as well, his siblings Archer Albert and Maud Gladys were baptised 23 February 1911 at Holy Trinity Wimbledon and you can look through the church records page by page. Also if you click on the name of the church at the top right hand corner, you will see a whole list of churches in Wimbledon where he may have been christened. I know it's a long shot and it will take some time, but you sounded as though you are willing to try anything and everything to find him, good luck.

 

[Gillian]

Instead of my birth certificate, I use my passport to prove my existence in official circumstances

How did you manage to get a passport without a birth certificate? I've always had to produce one, for each successive passport, which has always seemed a bit daft. One would think "they"d know who I am by now.

 

[Katie Bee]

If you google Percival Sidney Augustus Jonas, you get a number of hits for the Maw family Tree
This link takes you to Percival's page. They have his date of birth 3 May 1897 Wimbledon, , Surrey, England [2, 3, 4]
If you look at the notes, number 3 looks as if it should be the birth index, and number 4 the death index
Note 3 states England and Wales, Civil Registration Index: 1837-1983, (FreeBMD. England and Wales, Civil Registration Index: 1837-1983. [database online] Provo, UT: Ancestry.com, 2001. Original data: Microfilm and microfiche of the England and Wales, Civil Registration Indexes created by the General Register Office, in London, England.), GRO Reference - District Fulham - Volume 1a Page 635 (Reliability: 3).
Looking at FreeBMD there is no volume 1a page 635 in the year 1897. There is Volume 1a, but the page does not tie up.
There are no relevant Percivals/Percys as far as I could see.
The source does not state year or quarter which does not help.
Maybe you could have a look at the Maw family tree in more depth and contact the owner of the tree to see if they could shed any more light on the subject.

Also I would not take too much store on the family bible being correct. My family bible had a number of inaccuracies, especially around the date of marriage and birth of the first child!

Good luck

 

[jorghes]

How did you manage to get a passport without a birth certificate? I've always had to produce one, for each successive passport, which has always seemed a bit daft. One would think "they"d know who I am by now.

I was put on my mother's when I was born, presumably that was then used when I got my own at the age of 2. For each successive passport I just produce the passport before!

 

[dirk112]

I think at one time, you could be added to your parent's Passport on the strength of a Family Allowance book and then if you timed it right, you could get your own Passport on the strength of your parent's Passport. Or was it a Mars Bar wrapper?

Seriously though, the birth of my Gt Grandmother's mother doesn't appear on the BMD's. There is a Baptism, allegedly when she was a few months old. I've searched and searched with many permutations, but to no avail.

I don't think they failed to register her. The name may have been spelt wrong, but knowing the family, I suspect she may have been 'adopted' at a very early age. Maybe the Mother died soon after the birth was registered. Doubt that I will ever know.

The problem I have though, is whether or not to treat her 'Parents' as blood relatives.

 

[Gillian]

Goodness. I've even worked in the British Embassy in Helsinki, and yet have still always had to produce a birth certificate!

 

[dirk112]

Don't quote me on that, but I think it was something along those lines. Something in the back of my mind.

Don't forget, we used to be too lax on a lot of things in the past!

 

[Alexander Bisset]

I was put on my mother's when I was born, presumably that was then used when I got my own at the age of 2. For each successive passport I just produce the passport before!

Indeed and is precisely the reason that a national ID card system as was proposed some years ago is a meaningless exercise as to get one you used a passport as proof of identity.

Rigorous proof of identity is a tricky subject if you insist on ID cards you need a quick way of creating them to get them in use by the population, if you create them quickly you are assuming that the old passport system is secure and correct which we all know is far from the case. For every genuine case like Jorghes there's hundreds of fakes out their. Basing ID off such a system would have been fatally flawed from the outset.

Security be it ID cards, computer security, banking, etc is always a trade off between complexity and security. The less complex it is then typically the less secure it is. The more layers you add to make it more secure the less convenient it is and the more likely it is that people will do insecure things like write down passwords etc.

Think for example of the growing use of complex passwords (uppercase, lowercase, numbers and symbols) far more secure as it's far more difficult to crack with a brute force dictionary attack, yet forcing people to use complex passwords hugely increases the chances they will write them down, or worse use the same password for multiple sites.

 

[Katie Bee]

District Fulham - Volume 1a Page 635

Just realised that this is the marriage index. June 1898. Just checked it on FreeBMD.
So looks like the Maw family historian dose not have a birth index either.

I am confused, he cannot have married in 1898 if he was only born in 1897!
Back to the drawing board.

 

[Laurie Jonas]

Thank you for all your comments. I've been away for a few days and didn't want it to appear that I've not responded. I'll have a good read through and then post a proper reply tomorrow. Thank you all once again

 

[jorghes]

I think at one time, you could be added to your parent's Passport on the strength of a Family Allowance book and then if you timed it right, you could get your own Passport on the strength of your parent's Passport. Or was it a Mars Bar wrapper?

Goodness. I've even worked in the British Embassy in Helsinki, and yet have still always had to produce a birth certificate!

Well, to clarify - I'm Australian, not British. I was born to an Australian parent and a dual Australia/British parent, in a third country, although still part of the Commonwealth. Due to being born prior to a rule change, I was given Australian citizenship as a right of birth since I was born to Australian parents. (The rules changed and now children born overseas to Australian parents are not automatically awarded citizenship, but rather have to apply.) I was only registered at the Australian High Commission's register of births and not with the local authority. As far as the local authority knows, I might not exist (it's a developing country anyway, so records are probably not excellent.)

I have never heard of any issues of my placement on my mother's passport, except for an incorrectly entered name. My mother even was issued with a new birth certificate with myself and my older brother on it.

My mother contacted the relevant state's Births, Deaths and Marriages when we returned to Australia to access birth certificates for her husband and all of her children. I have seen the letter which was sent back to refund the money and tell her that my older brother and I could not be issued with birth certificates and we had to apply to the place in which we were registered.

My older brother, who moved back to our birth country three years ago, has been to the High Commission and asked whether or not they can issue him with a birth certificate - they have told him to apply to the relevant body in Australia. I, in turn, asked that body in Australia, who told me only the High Commission in my birth country could help. I am planning on writing an annoyed letter to the office in Canberra that is meant to maintain the records for BDMs registered at High Commissions and ask them as well, but I can see there is a change I will never get a birth certificate.

Which is annoying, since as I have a British parent, I could access certain rights within the UK as well... but not without an appropriate birth certificate. I can't even prove my own Australian citizenship (other than with my passport), because the first thing they ask for... is a birth certificate (all without giving me other options).

Indeed and is precisely the reason that a national ID card system as was proposed some years ago is a meaningless exercise as to get one you used a passport as proof of identity.

Rigorous proof of identity is a tricky subject if you insist on ID cards you need a quick way of creating them to get them in use by the population, if you create them quickly you are assuming that the old passport system is secure and correct which we all know is far from the case. For every genuine case like Jorghes there's hundreds of fakes out their. Basing ID off such a system would have been fatally flawed from the outset.

I admit that every time I renew my passport I take in what small items I have to prove my identity - the extract of my birth, a letter from the hospital that was used to prove my birth to the High Commission etc. Each and every time they tell me I can't use them and refer back to my previous passport.


I admit, the most annoying thing about it all is filling in official forms where I have to continually add in my country of birth, then when was the first time I entered Australia and finally a question about whether or not English is spoke at home. I often think that they wouldn't bother with those useless questions if they could see me - there's no doubt I'm not a native of my birth country.

 

[Laurie Jonas]

Now I've had a good read through hear are answers to some of the questions raised. I did think about transcription errors and potentially hyphenated middle names as this has happened before in my tree ( in the Maw line as it happens). Unfortunately all my lateral thinking on this particular avenue has again drawn a blank.

Sidney Frederick Jonas & Grace Topsy Maw were his parents and the 11 siblings have been identified correctly Heather. Gerald John is not a member of the family (to my knowledge at least). For some reason the 5 oldest surviving children were baptised in 1911, but on two different dates. Lily Maskie however was baptised the day before her death which is understandable. The younger children were baptised more in keeping with their birth dates. I will browse the Surrey records again though.

Regarding the Maw tree I have in the past contacted the authors of that information but I will do so again to ask their source of the Fulham entry.

Thank you all once again and the birth certificate/passport discussion is interesting

 

[Gillian]

The correspondence about British passports reminds me of an unhappy time I'd almost forgotten. Several years ago, perhaps someone remembers when, it became possible for British mothers married to foreign nationals to pass on their nationality to their alien children. I was so pleased - now at last my children would be able to have dual nationality (Finnish and British) as I have had ever since I was married. But there was a catch. It turned out that the British mother couldn't pass on her nationality if she had been born abroad. As I was. But, why was I born abroad? Because my father was in the army, and happened to be in Egypt, serving King and country, when I was born (on the eve of WWII). What's more he'd been in the army from the day he'd enlisted at the age of 16 in 1914 until the day he retired in 1948. And as if that wasn't enough, he was badly wounded on the Somme and was among those evacuated in small boats from Dunkirk. Well, of course, there were thousands of British mothers like me, children of servicemen born abroad. One of my brothers certainly wasn't the only person who got his MP to query the ruling, and eventually the law was amended. The attitude of our kids, all teenagers, when they heard that they could now get British nationality was quite amusing: our son said it made no difference what he was; our elder daughter said she wouldn't touch British nationality even if they put it in her hand; our younger daughter was thrilled and did in fact get a British passport. As it turned out, the elder daughter was the only one who might have profited from it, as she later went to university in England. To my knowledge the younger one never ever used hers.
It has just occurred to me that the reason I always have to produce a birth cert. when I renew my passport is because I was born in Egypt. The only other times I've suffered from this were when I was a titch and my brothers used to tease me that I was a gippy. I can still hear myself crying in fury "not a gippy, not a gippy".

 

[MartinB]

Regarding the Maw tree I have in the past contacted the authors of that information but I will do so again to ask their source of the Fulham entry.

The Maw family tree gives exactly the same date of birth as in your Bible. So did you tell the Maw historian of that entry or did he/she obtain that independently from another source?

 

[Laurie Jonas]

I would imagine that information come from me. I spoke (via email) quite a lot with the site owner some years ago