My gg grandmother gave birth to her 11th child in 1857 in Westminster,(maiden name shown in records) her husband married for a second time in 1858. Have not been able to find a death or burial record despite many years of searching. I am wondering if she may have been admitted to an Asylum I have been unable to find her on census records I believe some Asylum records are by initials only. Any advice on how to proceed would be very much appreciated I live in Australia so not able to access records in person. Hetta
-
Only registered members can see all the forums - if you've received an invitation to join (it'll be on your My Summary page) please register NOW!
-
It's easier than ever before to check your entries from the 1881 Census - more details here
Asylum records
- Thread starter Humpty
- Start date
Asylum records, if available, will show the names of inmates. Census records will, in most years, only show initials.
Even if she died in an asylum her death would still have been registered. Does the marriage register entry for the husband's second marriage show him as a widower?
Thanks for reply, James was shown as a widower at the time of his second marriage. My gg grandmother was Maria Ann Grounsell nee Pledger, son Frederick was born 1857 James was married to Mary Ann Brown a widow in 1858. Unfortunately following the Grounsell name through the years and census the spelling changed markedly. I have exhausted all avenues that I can think of re death records which is why I was wondering if she saw out her years in an Asylum she was born in 1821, husband James was a Tailor born 1815 in Mid Lavant, Sussex. Sorry for tardy reply had not checked spam. Hetta
It's not really a 'brick wall' - it doesn't stop you researching back further.
But it would certainly be interesting to discover whether her husband married bigamously in order to provide a (step)mother for all those children - widowers who didn't remarry often saw their children die one by one.
Pauline
LostCousins Megastar
One reason why people seemingly disappear can be that they start using a different surname. One of my gg grandmothers vanished some time after the 1871 census and the most likely scenario (since she'd done it before) is that she moved in with a new man and started using his surname. Her death was probably registered under a different surname too, which is why I've never found it.
Thank you Peter and Pauline. Somehow I really need to find a death certificate. I have followed Maria and James back through the generations the lack of the record does not alter my family tree. I have been following various family branches since 1981 I am now at the stage of driving my self slightly mad and frustrated over gaps. Hetta
There may not be one. In those days people were less likely to carry any form of identification, so someone who was - for example - found drowned in a river might never be identified. We've all seen such entries in parish burial registers - they didn't cease in 1837 when civil registration began. Even worse, a body that had deteriorated could be misidentified - no fingerprinting or DNA testing in those days.
A search for surname 'unknown' at FreeBMD shows over a dozen unknown female deaths - in London alone - each quarter from June 1857 to the end of the year. They were all someone's daughter, some would have been wives and mothers. (If you use the new GRO death indexes leave the forename blank.)
Incidentally there's some key information missing from what you have told us so far. You haven't told us the date of birth of the child, nor when the birth was registered, and who the registrant was. At the very least having that information will reveal the earliest date on which she died.
In general it's also worth bearing in mind that because the time for registering deaths is much shorter than the limit for registering births, the death of a mother could be registered in the quarter preceding the one in which her child's birth is registered.
Wow - lots of food for thought. Frederick was born 17th August 1857, Reg St Giles, Bapt. 20 September 1857 St. Anne Soho. Is there any way the unknown deaths from Free BMD can be crossmatched with the GRO records? Maria's age if she died in 1857 would have been 36. Hetta
Of course - they both show volume and page number.
But in most cases there is no age shown, since unless the deceased was a child there would have been no way of knowing their age, so all you can do is eliminate the infants. Even if you did have the correct certificate it's highly unlikely there would be any information that would enable you to identify your ancestor - at best you'll discover how the person died and where they were found (which in the case of a drowning could be a long way from where they fell in).
Please bear in mind that you still haven't provided all the missing information from Frederick's birth certificate.
Pauline
LostCousins Megastar
The baptism shows Frederick as son of James and Mary Ann. There is obviously a potential for confusion between Maria and Mary, but this could indicate that your gg grandmother was out of the picture sooner than you think, and that Frederick was not her son but Mary Ann’s.
Frederick’s birth may have been registered as if he was Maria’s son to make him appear legitimate. I have an example of this in my own family so I know it happened - a child registered as daughter of the father’s first wife and baptised as daughter of his second wife to be (as if already married).
All the more reason to tell us who registered the birth, Humpty - please put us out of our misery!
Copy certificate arrived, don't know that it advances my cause. Frederick was born on the 17th August 1857, copies of Endell Street Lying In Hospital and GRO birth record seem to agree that Maria Ann Grounsell wife of James Grounsell, Tailor was the mother. GRO record has name and maiden name as Maria Ann Grounsell formerly Pledger, signature of informant just M A Grounsell.
I do have a copy of 1861 census for Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum with a patient M.A.G. who is the wife of a Tailor with an age of 43 could this be my Maria Ann? still unable to find a death. Maria's father died of Paralysis perhaps Maria had late onset Syphilis, I wonder if this could be a reason for the marriage of James to Mary Ann Brown and claiming he was a Widower.
I think the most likely outcome is that I will leave the death field blank on my tree. Thank you, Humpty
I do have a copy of 1861 census for Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum with a patient M.A.G. who is the wife of a Tailor with an age of 43 could this be my Maria Ann? still unable to find a death. Maria's father died of Paralysis perhaps Maria had late onset Syphilis, I wonder if this could be a reason for the marriage of James to Mary Ann Brown and claiming he was a Widower.
I think the most likely outcome is that I will leave the death field blank on my tree. Thank you, Humpty
That's possible - the fact that she was in the Lying-In Hospital for her confinement, even though it would be her 11th child suggests there was something unusual going on. Does the place of birth given in the census fit?
You talked earlier about having found asylum records - or were you simply referring to the census entry? If so it's worth checking what records, if any, have survived - an admissions register would be ideal.
On what date was the birth registered? Does it give a description of the informant (eg mother), and did the informant sign or make her mark?
Asylum record was a census record Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Bow St Mary, Middlesex, I believe that it was a private asylum no records have survived. The birth was registered 29th August and signed M A Grounsell, Mother, 13 Little Dean Street, Soho, I believe that this may have been false as the Lying-in Hospital record states that discharge was 4 September (perhaps the baby was discharged and Maria died) the column is headed Discharge or Died still that does not explain the lack of a death certificate.
Yes, the place of birth on the census fits although scant - London, Middlesex, Maria was baptised 14 May 1821 Marylebone. The census says Patient, married, wife of a Tailor, born London Middlesex, age appears to be 40/43. Not able to find her on further census. Humpty
Yes, the place of birth on the census fits although scant - London, Middlesex, Maria was baptised 14 May 1821 Marylebone. The census says Patient, married, wife of a Tailor, born London Middlesex, age appears to be 40/43. Not able to find her on further census. Humpty
It was indeed a private asylum, but that doesn't necessarily mean that no records have survived. Have you checked this TNA research guide and the Lunacy Patients Admission Registers, 1846-1912 at Ancestry?
What do you believe to be false?
I have a doubt about the signing on 29th August by M A Grounsell if Maria was still in hospital - who signed? The certificate shows Maria Ann Grounsell formerly Pledger as the mother but the signature is just M A Grounsell. Perhaps Maria was discharged and the baby was kept until 4th September or the date of discharge was incorrect or the mothers were able to register the birth whilst in hospital?
I have checked Lunacy Patients at Ancestry also the LMA and the TNA and anything else I could locate.
As an aside James's daughters Emily b1850 (grousell) and Ellen Ann b1851 (gronsell) have not been able to locate their deaths or burials, neither was around for the 1861 census it must be something about the name Grounsell.!! Humpty
I have checked Lunacy Patients at Ancestry also the LMA and the TNA and anything else I could locate.
As an aside James's daughters Emily b1850 (grousell) and Ellen Ann b1851 (gronsell) have not been able to locate their deaths or burials, neither was around for the 1861 census it must be something about the name Grounsell.!! Humpty