Ancestry can be so perverse

[peter]

I looked at the first page of the 1851 census in Ancestry, it defines who is responsible for the gathering of the information in these establishments. I doubt Gallway himself wrote so may pages, more than likely delegated to a person of lower rank.

I'm certain that Capers didn't complete the entire schedule - but that doesn't mean that he didn't write (or draft) his own entry. It doesn't look to me as if all of the entries on that page are in the same handwriting.

 

[Bob Spiers]

RIP Gallway Byng Payne -



Incidentally the 1841 Census shows him clearest of all (tried to copy but failed) will post later

 

[Bob Spiers]

1841 Census original:

He was a Lieutenant Royal Marines at that time based in Portsmouth District Royal Marine Gun Wharf Barracks

 

[Heather]

There is a marriage on FreeBMD for a Gallway Byng Payne Dec qtr 1856 Kensington 1a 114 . He married either Emma Susannah Payne or Emma Susannah Blakiston (FMP) or Blakeston or Payne (FreeBMD) !!!

 

[At home in NZ]

There is a marriage on FreeBMD for a Gallway Byng Payne Dec qtr 1856 Kensington 1a 114 . He married either Emma Susannah Payne or Emma Susannah Blakiston (FMP) or Blakeston or Payne (FreeBMD) !!!

The parish register is in Ancestry, it was Emma Susannah Blakiston

 

[Bob Spiers]

Back on topic 'Ancestry can be so perverse'. I am reviewing my Irish ancestry for the umpteenth time, and spotted the total fabrication by Ancestry of a death place purported to be in my OWN Tree. #1 shows the 'invented' death place and #2 how it is recorded in the Tree in question:
#1

Tree person James Flynn (my 2GGF) with the following information shown for him:

This is the information in my Tree for James Flynn:

#2



I have one Hint showing 3 other Trees: one to be ignored because it is my daughters Tree and has the same information as my own (ie died Birmingham). The other two are known to me with information identical to my own showing he died in Birmingham and before the 1871 Census, where his 2nd wife* is shown as a widow.

* Mary was his first wife who died (I believe) giving birth to Festus in 1841. James married again in 1842 to a Bridget Walsh and I descend from this union.

But the point I make is where does the '1870 Illinois, USA' come from? It is a pure invention conjured up by Ancestry. It is by no means the first time I have come across a seemingly invented death (could also be a birth or marriage) place, but just one that for the moment sticks in my craw. Any ideas how such comes about?

 

[At home in NZ]

Tree person James Flynn (my 2GGF) with the following information shown for him:

Which record set did you get that from? I haven't ever seen anything like it in Ancestry.

No idea how any of it comes about, I get Hints of events taking place in US after a persons death in Ireland!

 

[jorghes]

Which record set did you get that from? I haven't ever seen anything like it in Ancestry.

No idea how any of it comes about, I get Hints of events taking place in US after a persons death in Ireland!

It will appear at the top of the search results when you hit the "search" button from a person's profile on Ancestry. It's usually entitled "from Ancestry trees" or similar.

 

[Pauline]

But the point I make is where does the '1970 Illinois, USA' come from?

I presume it is something it is something to do with how Ancestry interprets the place as it is entered in your tree. If you enter Birmingham in a search and check in the drop-down, you'll see that there is one in Schuyler, Illinois, though quite why Ancestry have gone for that Birmingham rather than the Warwickshire one is anyone's guess. As you say, Ancestry can be perverse!

 

[Bob Spiers]

It will appear at the top of the search results when you hit the "search" button from a person's profile on Ancestry. It's usually entitled "from Ancestry trees" or similar.

Correct jorghes, exactly as you say.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I presume it is something it is something to do with how Ancestry interprets the place as it is entered in your tree. If you enter Birmingham in a search and check in the drop-down, you'll see that there is one in Schuyler, Illinois, though quite why Ancestry have gone for that Birmingham rather than the Warwickshire one is anyone's guess. As you say, Ancestry can be perverse!

That would appear to explain things Pauline, and I may in the very first instance have merely shown it as Birmingham, without Warwickshire, England qualification. However it has been so qualified for some time, but that clearly has not been picked up by Ancestry, who for their own reasons chose to stay with their first choice of Schuyler, Illinois, USA.

I suppose as anyone clicking on my web page will clearly see it showing Birmingham, Warwickshire, England I will have to be satisfied with that.

 

[peter]

why Ancestry have gone for that Birmingham rather than the Warwickshire one is anyone's guess.

In my experience US locations are prioritised.

If I do a search of Ancestry public trees for James Flynn one tree shows up in the search results with Schuyler place of death, but it's not Bob's tree, though when I go to the tree it has the same information as Bob, so the search result is equally bogus.

My guess is that when Ancestry's servers are very busy they take shortcuts, which mostly aren't noticed, but occasi0nally produce glaring errors like this.

 

[Pauline]

In my experience US locations are prioritised

I agree, but the Birmingham in Schuyler is not the only one in the US, nor the first one in the drop-down list, so I'm still a bit mystified as to why this particular Birmingham comes up.

 

[peter]

I agree, but the Birmingham in Schuyler is not the only one in the US, nor the first one in the drop-down list, so I'm still a bit mystified as to why this particular Birmingham comes up.

If I'm right about corners being cut because of server overload it could be simply be a result of the way the database is structured. Incidentally, if you search Ancestry trees for a James Flynn who died in Birmingham, Schuyler, Illinois precisely you don't get any results from - it's only when you search by county that he shows up.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Would you believe after leaving things alone for a while, I returned to James Flynn's page again and clicked on search (just a general one) and lo and behold it NOW shows his death as 1870 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England. I can't recall how long the Schuyler one showed, but certainly some months.

I would just say that so far an actual death registration has alluded me so whilst I know they were in the Irish 1851 Census and emigrated to Britain after this date and settled in Birmingham they do NOT appear in the 1861 English Census (as discovered so far).

But I do know that James - a Tailor by trade - worked in Birmingham during the 1860's, but did not show in the 1871 Census with Bridget and family as she is shown as a Widow. The only death registration I can find so far in 1870 is for a James Flynn who fits the bill as a Tailor, but in Manchester and is buried there. This does not sit comfortably with me which is why I returned to him to see if I could once again see if I could overcome this brick wall. I shall persevere.

 

[PhilGee]

Bob, if you cannot find any other evidence it may be "last resort time" i.e. get a pdf certificate

One of my direct ancestors lived in Bedminster after marriage and most trees have her death in Bristol (though if they check the age it is obviously not her). On a shear guess, I wondered if she had returned "home" and found a possible death entry, decided to get a "pdf" and found the informant was her second cousin. I would only do that for direct ancestors, though!

 

[Bob Spiers]

Bob, if you cannot find any other evidence it may be "last resort time" i.e. get a pdf certificate

Thanks Phil, yes guess that is my next move. I have in fact only just applied for pdf copies of the death cert of James' daughter Bridget (my GGM) and her spouse (GGF) to tie up other details, but have been reluctant to ago on what I thought a wild goose chase finding James other than in Birmingham. I think I do need to either prove or eliminate the Manchester death, but may need to spend sometime to see if I can find a link to that city first.

 

[Helen7]

I think I do need to either prove or eliminate the Manchester death, but may need to spend sometime to see if I can find a link to that city first.

This case reminds me of tracing the death of my great-great grandfather Daniel Rawlins (grandfather of the Douglas Rawlins I mentioned earlier in this discussion - what symmetry!). I knew he'd died, aged only in his forties, between 1875 (when his last child was born) and 1881 (when his wife appeared as a widow in the census). The only death of someone of his name and age anywhere in England (or Wales) during that period was in 1877, in a place in Derbyshire seemingly unconnected to any of his places of residence or his widow's home in 1881 (though his children's birthplaces did tell me the family had moved around a bit - London, Lincs, Yorks, Lancs!).

So I sent off for the death certificate and waited for it to arrive by post (this was in the days before pdf copies). If his occupation (saddler) matched I could be pretty sure it was indeed my ancestor, and I hoped the informant would be his wife to provide further confirmation. I was also interested to discover how he'd died at the age of only 43 (I thought maybe TB?). Well, the occupation did match, but the informant was the Coroner, and I was shocked to see the cause of death as "Accidentally killed by being run over by an express train". I then found a very detailed report of the inquest in a local newspaper, which confirmed further family details: his eldest son, my great-grandfather, gave evidence (aged only 15) and indeed identified the body. The family lived nearby - and their address is given in the report, providing further information which I had been totally unaware of.

So I guess the moral of this tale is: don't be too put off if you can't find a link to a place of death. There may be a link there you don't know about. In any event, all you stand to lose is the cost of the certificate, but you might gain so much more, as I did in this case.

 

[Bob Spiers]

There may be a link there you don't know about. In any event, all you stand to lose is the cost of the certificate

Or even the cost for two as I sent for pdf copies of James Flynn dying in Manchester 1870 and shortly after discovering a Mary Flynn aged 4 (as I know his youngest daughter died around the same time and I found a likely candidate also in Manchester). Neither sadly turn out to be my Flynn family so have abandoned Manchester for now.

Luckily the pdf copies of the death certs in Birmingham for his eldest daughter (my GGM) dying in Birmingham in 1927 and her spouse in 1911 turned out to be the right ones. So back to the grindstone once again.

 

[Helen7]

Neither sadly turn out to be my Flynn family so have abandoned Manchester for now.

Pity, but at least you've now eliminated the Manchester death which you were wondering about.