A Conundrum?

[Tim]

In the below attachments are pictures of a flask and its case.
The case is marked with some initials and there is an inscription inside the top of the cover.

The challenge is:

1. What are the full names of the 2 individuals;
2. When were they born and where;
3. How did they know each other;
4. And are there any living relatives?

This is just a bit of fun, but we might be able to get this flask back to a family member.

 

[peter]

I couldn't find any contemporary advertisements for Isovac flasks, to find out how much it might have cost, but there are a number of full page advertisements in the 1920s in the British Newspaper Archive. The cheapest (pint size) is 4s6d.

 

[Tim]

Thanks Peter, that's very interesting. Still trying to find any reference to Mr W B Scobell.

Any help would be greatly appreciated from the Forum.

 

[Helen7]

Still trying to find any reference to Mr W B Scobell.

Could he be the William Blike Scobell baptised 1884 in Bovey Tracey, Devon, son of a London accountant? Or the William Benjamin Scobell, baptised 1845 in Stokeinteignhead, Devon, son of a shipwright of Ringmore? (both from Devon Baptisms at FMP).

 

[At home in NZ]

The Aberdeen Archives Gallery and Museum has an identical flask but it does not say when it could have been made. Might be worth an enquiry.

My suggestion would be to find these guys in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, to find out if were they neighbours or had the same line of work?
Did they go to school together?

 

[Heather]

Could he be the William Blike Scobell baptised 1884 in Bovey Tracey, Devon, son of a London accountant? Or the William Benjamin Scobell, baptised 1845 in Stokeinteignhead, Devon, son of a shipwright of Ringmore? (both from Devon Baptisms at FMP).

Whilst there are only two William B Scobell listed on a general search on FMP as Helen has found, there are many, many more Alfred H Hedges listed.

 

[At home in NZ]

Whilst there are only two William B Scobell listed on a general search on FMP as Helen has found, there are many, many more Alfred H Hedges listed.

General search in FS finds William Benjamin Scobell baptised 18 May 1845 at Stokeinteignhead, Devon, son of Henry a shipwright.. but on following through to the birth registration the last name becomes Scoble together with a subsequent move to Lancs.
That's not much help is it?! but I've written it now.

 

[Pauline]

Whilst there are only two William B Scobell listed on a general search on FMP as Helen has found, there are many, many more Alfred H Hedges listed.

There was an Alfred Hale Hedges whose birth registered in 1888, and it looks from the 1939 register as though he was born 10 June 1888. Thus this flask could have been to mark his 21st birthday.

 

[Tim]

There was an Alfred Hale Hedges whose birth registered in 1888, and it looks from the 1939 register as though he was born 10 June 1888. Thus this flask could have been to mark his 21st birthday.

Yes, I think this is the correct one. Therefore would it be safe to assume that Billy was a similar age?

 

[Susan48]

Whilst there are only two William B Scobell listed on a general search on FMP as Helen has found.

There is a W B Scobell age 29 discharged from Queen Alexandra's Military Hospital at Millbank on 1 Jun 1917. He was a Captain in the Royal Berkshire Regiment. This information is from the British Armed Forces, First World War Soldiers' Medical Records set on Findmypast. This would make him the same age as Alfred Hale Hedges.

 

[Pauline]

There is a W B Scobell age 29 discharged from Queen Alexandra's Military Hospital at Millbank on 1 Jun 1917. He was a Captain in the Royal Berkshire Regiment. This information is from the British Armed Forces, First World War Soldiers' Medical Records set on Findmypast. This would make him the same age as Alfred Hale Hedges.

I think he may have been the Walter Barton Scobell born 1887.

 

[Pauline]

would it be safe to assume that Billy was a similar age?

My experience in family history suggests it’s never safe to assume anything! However, it seems a not unreasonable starting point, as is the assumption that he was born William.

 

[Bob Spiers]

There is a W B Scobell age 29 discharged from Queen Alexandra's Military Hospital at Millbank on 1 Jun 1917. He was a Captain in the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

Yes, after short listing Alfred Hale Hedges because of his birth date aligning with the flask inscription, I too thought WB Scobell (Captain Royal Berkshire Reg)might be the likely friend. But further research shows him to be a Walter Barton Scobell, so back to the drawing board. I doubt the surname 'Scobell' will have survived transcription variations mind and at the moment think William B Soble a contender but location-location still a problem.

Edit: sorry did not spot Pauline had also concluded he might be Walter Barton Scobell

 

[Helen7]

I doubt the surname 'Scobell' will have survived transcription variations mind and at the moment think William B Soble a contender but location-location still a problem.

I found the 'William Blike Scobell' baptised in Devon in 1884 - parents William and Caroline, father an accountant - living with his parents in Hackney in 1891 and 1901. His actual name is William Blake Scoble, birth registered in Hackney, Apr-Jun 1884, mother Blake. He has a younger brother, Harry Reginald Scoble, born Apr-Jun 1887. Their father was born in Cornwall, possibly explaining the Devon baptism?

In 1911, William Blake Scoble (surname consistently spelt on all the censuses) is newly married, a commercial traveller in dairy machinery, living with his wife in Finchley. His parents and brother Harry are still in Hackney (brother also an accountant).

I see the Alfred Hale Hedges that Pauline found was born in Hertfordshire - baptised 29 Jul 1888 in Little Hadham, parents John and Clara - and the family are in Hertfordshire in 1891 and 1901. Then, in 1911, Alfred Hedges - single, aged 22, born Little Hadham, motor engineer (his occupation in the 1939 register) - is boarding with a Carey family in Cambridge. I like the idea that the flask was a 21st birthday gift, which would fit nicely with his birthdate on the 1939 register.

In summary, I can't see a connection between these two people. Moreover, surely the surname Scoble wouldn't have been misspelt as Scobell on the gift? So maybe the William Blake Scoble mentioned above is not the Billy Scobell (or W.B.S.) named on the flask?

 

[peter]

I think we have to consider the possibility that 'Billy' was a pet name or nickname. In that case we surely can't rule out the possibility that 'Billy' was female?

 

[Pauline]

I think we have to consider the possibility that 'Billy' was a pet name or nickname. In that case we surely can't rule out the possibility that 'Billy' was female?

I agree (as I said above) that we can't necessarily assume that Billy was born William, though for a female it would more commonly be spelt Billie. However, there are not that many Scobells (even including variants) who have the initials W B in the E&W birth indexes, so maybe he (or she) was born elsewhere, or born with a different surname, or his birth was not registered etc.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Having found a Hertfordshire residing William Scobell as a Union member working in the Paper Trade at the Croxley Mill, Watford, Herts and paying his Union dues to the Amalgamated Society of Paper Makers for the period 1913-1914 I had hoped to find a work colleague named Alfred Hedges, but no such name appears working at the Croxley Mill. The Union covers many other Paper Mills within and outside the Hertfordshire area and far too many to check every one.

I can find several Alfred Hedges/A. Hedges as Union members (perhaps the same man) and all London based but he/they are Railway related so unless Alfred H and William S are each members of the TUC (Trade Union Congress) (but at their early ages I think perhaps not) I think a Trade Union connection likely a red herring.

 

[peter]

However, there are not that many Scobells (even including variants) who have the initials W B in the E&W birth indexes, so maybe he (or she) was born elsewhere, or born with a different surname, or his birth was not registered etc.

Around that time it was quite common for people who weren't given a middle name at birth to add one themselves later.

 

[Pauline]

Around that time it was quite common for people who weren't given a middle name at birth to add one themselves later.

There aren’t that many plain W Scobells either. One way or another he seemed to have acquired a middle initial by 1909, but it isn’t only the birth records which are lacking in W B Scobells. I did vaguely wonder if the initial B simply represented his nickname Billy rather than him actually having a middle name.

 

[Bob Spiers]

I have been researching the 'Scobell/Hedges Conundrum off and on since Tim posted it, I can find no obvious relationship except both were I believe motor mechanics with Alfred Hale Hedges a Master and an employer in Hertfordshire and William (not found with a middle initial) Scobell also a motor mechanic and employed as such in Surrey.

Here is a brief family history chart applying to each.



William Scobell born 1882 in Streatham ,Surrey married a Lily Cannon in 1908 and had 3 children as shown. He served in the RASC in WW1 assigned as a mechanic/driver in a MT (Mechanical Transport). The ASC United operated transport to deliver ammunition, food and equipment and also as ambulance drivers, Employed at WE Blunt, Bridge Side Garage, Mitcham, Surrey. I believe he died the early age of 39 but that is inconclusive.

Alfred Hale Hedges born Little Adham , Hertfordshire in 1888. Either did not marry, or he married after the age of 51 where he is shown as single. He had two sisters who also appear not to have married, or did so at a later age. Alfred served in the newly named Royal Air Force (previously Royal Flying Corps) also in an MT unit as a driver/mechanic and gained rapid promotion to Corporal and Sergeant in 1916 and to Flight Sergeant in 1918, also shown as Chief Motor Mechanic and likely headed the unit. Alfred died in 1961 aged 73.

CONCLUSION: I have not discovered how they became friends, but as both were motor mechanics- William serving in the Army and Alfred the RAF - they may still have had an MT (Mechanical Transport) inter services connection. William was 6 years older than Alfred, married with a family, whilst Alfred (likely senior in his trade qualifications (Master) and an employer) seems not to have married and strangely neither of his sisters. I have not researched to find parents for William, nor thought it necessary considering I was trying to establish how he and Alfred were connected, but as Alfred and two sisters were shown living with parents John & Clara in the 1911 Census I include them. John was a Gardener and Clara shown 'incapacitated' so both girls (single 27 & 31) were shown as 'Home Duties'.

I admit to not being successful finding William with the middle initial 'B' and the nearest I came to this was a W.B. Scobell a Lieutenant in the Royal Berkshire Regiment but decided to discount him. Perhaps as suggested in the Forum it stood for 'Billy', otherwise I pass on this as have others

As for Living relatives I am sure further research on William and family might uncover something, but as the gift was intended for Alfred Hale Hedges, and he appears not to have married, I think this doubtful.

Perhaps others may venture further.