Advice please

[Carla]

I had a look at where I should ask this but decided in the end to post here (I am easily confused today)

Okay to all those who are more experienced than me....

My ancestor Thomas Stanley appears to have been married twice. In the 1901 census he has a wife Lizzie and in the 1911 census he has a wife Louisa. I have identified the marriage details for both, I think, and Thomas is cited as a 'widower' in his second marriage. I have spent hours now looking for the details of Lizzie's death and just can't seem to locate it. I can narrow it down to a window of between 1901 (due to the census details) and 1906 (when the second marriage took place). Thomas was a soldier and so I can identify where he was based in some records but Lizzies record is eluding me. She was Irish so I suppose she could have gone back home and died there, but I have reached that mental 'tired' block.

So what am I missing and what else can I try? I have been on lots of different ancestral sites to look....and if the answer is really easy and I am being an idiot I may just go and get a glass of wine!!

 

[Heather]

Carla, you haven't said where you have searched so I had a look in FreeBMD and there is a death for an Elizabeth Stanley in March qtr 1902 in Devises Wiltshire 5a 69 aged 45 years, could this be her?

 

[Bob Spiers]

Carla, you haven't said where you have searched so I had a look in FreeBMD and there is a death for an Elizabeth Stanley in March qtr 1902 in Devises Wiltshire 5a 69 aged 45 years, could this be her?

I think that Elizabeth was a patient in Roundway Devizes Asylum in the 1901 Census: (aged 45 born 1856). Perhaps Carla will provide the birth year and area location which may help

 

[Bob Spiers]

If Thomas (Tom) was a soldier (Infantryman) in 1901 stationed at Rochester, Kent and living in married quarters with wife Lizzie (from Ireland) and family. And one and the same in 1911 as Tom Stanley with wife Louisa (married) 5 years and now a Masons Labourer in Salisbury Wiltshire[clue there is a daughter Caroline in both so Probability 8+], then perhaps the death registration provided by Heather for Devizes, Wiltshire in 1902 is on the ball.
(Mind that still leaves the Asylum patient of the same name shown in the 1901 Census but she could have died much later of course. I wonder if the fact that Tom's Lizzie was married to a Soldier (presumably when she died) have a bearing on the death registration?

 

[Carla]

Oooo lots of things to think about! Thank you.

Okay I searched using the Christian name Lizzie and then Elizabeth and even variations because I have no idea where in Ireland she was born.
I have searched Ancestry, Find my Past, FreeBDM and Family Search so far.

Thomas was born around 1862 in Alvediston, Wiltshire and was one of my ggrand-mother's older brothers.

This is the census details....
In 1881 census Thomas was aged 19 and a Private in the "1st Battalion 5th Fusiliers" Cambridge Barracks. The census place was Portsmouth, Hampshire

1901 census
Definitely the correct Thomas born in Alvediston and his wife's details....
Name:Lizzie Stanley
Age:32
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1869
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas Stanley
Gender:Female
Where born:Ireland
Civil Parish:Chatham
Ecclesiastical parish:Chatham St Mary
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Registration District:Medway
Sub-registration District:Rochester and Chatham
ED, institution, or vessel:Chatham Barracks
Neighbors:View others on page
Household Schedule Number:1
Piece:732
Folio:38
Page Number:6
Household Members:
NameAge
Thomas Stanley39
Lizzie Stanley32
James Stanley13
Florence Stanley11
Caroline Stanley9

This is Thomas marriage details stating 'widower'
Louisa Foyle1905TisburyWiltshire
Name:Thomas Stanley
Year of Registration:1905
Quarter of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep
District:Tisbury
County:Wiltshire
Volume:5a
Page:477

Obviously I can narrow Lizzie's death down as I said but it is hard to prove which detail is correct. Was she Lizzie or Elizabeth? I think she was Lizzie Walsh but maybe I need to get the certificates for both marriages to see if there are more details on them?
Name:Thomas Stanley
Date of Registration:Jan-Feb-Mar 1886
Registration District:Medway
Inferred County:Kent
Volume Number:2a
Page Number:690
Records on Page:
Name
Lizzie Walsh
Thomas Stanley

If she is the Lizzie above then surely her details would have Elizabeth if that was her birth Christian name?
I really appreciate the help.....

 

[Alexander Bisset]

If she is the Lizzie above then surely her details would have Elizabeth if that was her birth Christian name?
I really appreciate the help.....

It depends, given the period and area she probably was a Christian and thus her forename could be described as a Christian name. Of course these days a vast number of people in the UK aren't Christians and thus don't have a Christian name. Indeed if a form these days asks for my christian name I leave it blank or write not applicable!

As to how she was referred to on a birth entry, she may have been referred to as Elizabeth, although in some parts of the UK Elizabeth is interchangeable with Isobel/Isabella/Isabel or Beatrice/Beatrix etc. Other possible variants are things like Elspet, Eliza or Betty, Bessie, Bess. The Whats In a Name website has the following Elizabeth entry.

Elizabeth/Elisabeth/Elixabeth is one of those names with a LOT of variations. The most amusing of which is an entry I found on an OPR where the father (or mother) was obviously quite strict with the poor parish clerk as the entry is something like "Smith, Betty, NOT Elizabeth, natural daughter of John Smith, farmer and Mary Jones was born May 12th 1812". If I recall correctly the NOT is capitalised and underscored

 

[Heather]

I think that Elizabeth was a patient in Roundway Devizes Asylum in the 1901 Census: (aged 45 born 1856).

On reflection and after looking at this entry in 1901 (thanks Bob), this Elizabeth is listed as being born in Calne Wiltshire, so maybe not the one you are looking for Carla.

 

[Bob Spiers]

"Smith, Betty, NOT Elizabeth, natural daughter of John Smith, farmer and Mary Jones was born May 12th 1812". If I recall correctly the NOT is capitalised and underscored

That amused me Alexander because I had an elderly (to me at the time) Aunt Betty. When I commented in the early days of my Tree research that her birth had been registered as Elizabeth, she gave me an 'ear wigging' saying "My name is Betty - or Aunt Betty to you - and I want no more talk of being an 'Elizabeth'! Is that clear?" Well needless to say it was and it was only much (much) later have I felt able to record her as Elizabeth (Betty).

That aside and on the tack of the myriad of derivatives of Elizabeth - and viewing the Elizabeth entry - I think my Tree must cover a good many of the alternatives and even alternatives of alternatives, like Lizzie -Lizzy -Liz. Thankfully most search engines pull up the alternatives without asking.

 

[Bob Spiers]

i searched using the christian name Lizzie and then Elizabeth and even variations because i have no idea where in Ireland she was born.

I tried Roots Ireland for you and without being able to tie down a County found 99 hits for an Elizabeth Walsh c1869 +/- 2 years. You can register for free and view all 99 but you have to subscribe to get full details. However without a County - and then a Township/Parish - it would be a thankless task.

Interestingly no results were obtained using 'Lizzie' so it is probably likely she would have been christened (and here I do use the word christened as she almost certainly would have been baptised) Elizabeth. Then as often happens she became Lizzie and adopted this name for the rest of her life; and likely married as such.

 

[mowsehowse]

Probably totally off the wall, but did 1st Battalion 5th Fusiliers serve in Ireland around the possible time of first marriage? Might that narrow the area of search for Lizzie? Or is that needlessly convoluted?

 

[Carla]

Probably totally off the wall, but did 1st Battalion 5th Fusiliers serve in Ireland around the possible time of first marriage?

I didnt even think of looking for that information so i went and checked it out...and yes indeed the Battalion was in Dublin at the time of their marriage. It could give me some clues about Lizzies family, and now i have also found the deployment history it could give me a clue about the area they were in during the years just before Thomas's second marriage. That may help with finding Lizzie's death details? Thank you for that suggestion and now i am off to see if i can find any more information

 

[mowsehowse]

Looking good............. Keep us posted please.

 

[Carla]

I thought I had found Lizzie's death notice......the dob was close, the year of death was within the timeline of the 1901 and 1911 censuses and the area of death was in Dublin where Lizzie could have come from (after working out where the Battalion was during her marriage year)........

Name:Elizabeth Stanley
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1867
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1907
Death Age:40
Registration District Dublin North
Death Country:Ireland
Volume:2
Page:377
FHL Film Number:0101603

.......but, and it's a big but....Thomas's second marriage took place in 1905! I definitely have the right 2nd marriage too, as his stepson in the 1911 census has her surname from her 1st marriage. So now I have to rethink

 

[mowsehowse]

Disappointing, but keep it on file. I think you might need to look at the battalion's movements for the entire period? Did they remain in Dublin for some years? And whence came the second wife? That may hold a clue too perhaps? Good luck............

 

[haitchdt]

Many of the Parish records for Medway area are searchable on line. I have checked the local marriage registers for the marriage for this time period for Thomas Stanley and can tell you that no record shows at St Mary the Virgin, St John or Old Brompton Church, which are in the immediate area of the barracks or even Frindsbury All Saints (many couples rowed across the river to marry at Frindsbury). It might be that they didn't marry in church or they married in the Garrison Church, but those records aren't available on line. Sorry not to be more help

 

[chrissy1]

If it's any help, my grandfather's sister was baptised Edith Lizzie in the late 1880s and his mother was always known as Lizzie (b 1862) though she was baptised as Eliza............. On some censuses she was referred to as Lizzie but for birth, death, will and marriage she was Eliza.

 

[jorghes]

I agree with mowsehowse in that it might be useful to trace the movements of the Battalion, depending of course on how long he served, but it might help to locate where your Lizzie died.

I was able to use a battalion's movements (in this case the 79th Cameron Highlanders) to trace one of my "blurriest" ancestors (a slight brick wall), whose birth place and parents I still don't know, but who served as a Private and tracing the movements of his battalion found his marriage (while serving at Edinburgh Castle in 1853), his first child (living in Portsmouth at Cambridge Barracks in 1854 - this particular son actually lists his birthplace as "Kent" on subsequent censuses, incorrectly) and second child (living in Kent at the Shorncliffe Barracks at Cheriton in 1857) to his death in May 1858 in Lucknow, India during the Mutiny Wars - with possible stops in Crimea and Canada on the way. (His wife and children then returned to Edinburgh, her birthplace, and she remarried.)
So perhaps searching for a possible record of the Battalions movements during that time between 1901 and 1911 may give you a general area to search for a death record - and have you also considered that your ancestor may have naughtily remarried as a "widower" before his first wife died? (especially if there's a chance she was in an asylum) - it's a shame the death certificates of the time don't necessarily list parents/spouses or children to help you figure out whether or not you have the right Lizzie from the Index.