Can this be a connection to my unknown grandfather?

[canadianbeth]

In my e-mail today I received a record hint from Family Search for someone who is not in my FTM program, nor is his wife. He was born in Hampshire and was living in Norfolk in 1901 and 1911. My grandmother was in Woodford, London in 1908 when my Dad was born.

The hint was for John Francis Attwood. When I did a search on Ancestry I found no DNA matches. However, I do have a very high match for Webster, which is his wife's maiden name. I have no one named Webster in my FTM program either. The high match 198cM/5 segments lists names all from Norfolk. I do not know how they can be a connection to someone who fathered my Dad in 1907 in London. I checked John Francis' brothers; one died during WW1.

My aunt was also born in London in 1913; he could have been her father but there is still the Norfolk question.

I looked for any possible brothers for Gertrude Webster but was unsuccessful. What should I try next?

 

[Tim]

Hi Beth,

Just to make it clearer for everyone, the 198cM match is between yourself and who? A person called Webster?
Norfolk and London are not too far apart.

Check this out and enter 198 to get a list of most probable connections and scrolling down gives a nice visual.

 

[Pauline]

In my e-mail today I received a record hint from Family Search for someone who is not in my FTM program, nor is his wife. He was born in Hampshire and was living in Norfolk in 1901 and 1911. My grandmother was in Woodford, London in 1908 when my Dad was born.

Be a bit cautious with hints from FamilySearch as recently they have mixed up or confused a lot of place names. Many supposedly Hampshire records, for example, are actually Wiltshire, and within Wiltshire many place names are simply wrong.

 

[Pauline]

Which John Francis Attwood are we talking about here? I can't immediately find one living in Norfolk in 1901 and 1911, but there is one born in Basingstoke (which is in Hampshire) around 1865, and married to a Gertrude. There is also a marriage of a John Francis Attwood and of a Gertrude Webster in the Winchester Registration District in 1897 (though there's no guarantee these two married each other). However, I see from the census that Gertrude was from Norfolk.

As you will have seen from the chart Tim posted, if Gertrude Webster provides a link to your unknown grandfather, the relationship to you may not be that close, so there is plenty of scope for there to be a genuine Webster or Attwood link, but finding that link may well need a fair bit of research and investigation. Maybe the first step is to sketch out a rough tree around these Websters and see where that leads.

 

[Pauline]

Just to add to the above, it looks as though there are already trees at FamilySearch for both John Francis Attwood and Gertrude Webster (and maybe at Ancestry too) so that would be a good start. Obviously any tree you find online would need checking.

 

[Stuart]

I'm not sure how Norfolk for 1901 and 1911 arose - they married in Winchester in 1897 and stayed there until John died in 1917 and Gertrude in 1945. His Ancestry trees are not much help, as they don't even have Gertrude in them.Hers are better, and show two brothers. Arthur was born in 1870, married in north London (Hornsey) in 1906, so was in the general area at the time.

 

[Helen7]

Hers are better, and show two brothers. Arthur was born in 1870, married in north London (Hornsey) in 1906, so was in the general area at the time.

Both of Gertrude's brothers - William b.1858 and Arthur b.1870 - are living together in London (Lambeth) in 1901. Both born King's Lynn, Norfolk (as was Gertrude), William a telegraph overseer and Arthur a telegraph clerk. The woman Arthur married in 1906 (Catherine Champion) was from Crouch End, hence their marriage in Hornsey, and they are living in Crouch End with their baby daughter in 1911. This is only about 8 miles from Woodford. The older brother William married Mary Ann Taylor in Lewisham in 1907 and in 1911 they are living in Catford, south London, so further from Woodford.

 

[Pauline]

The woman Arthur married in 1906 (Catherine Champion) was from Crouch End, hence their marriage in Hornsey, and they are living in Crouch End with their baby daughter in 1911. This is only about 8 miles from Woodford.

A good example of how someone from a family in the "wrong" place could so easily turn out to have been in the "right" place at the right time.

I guess the next question might be - is there any connection between these Websters and the Webster DNA match? And if so, does it help to narrow down any possible connection to the unknown grandfather - who would not necessarily have had the surname Webster himself, of course.

 

[Helen7]

is there any connection between these Websters and the Webster DNA match? And if so, does it help to narrow down any possible connection to the unknown grandfather - who would not necessarily have had the surname Webster himself, of course.

I agree. It looks like Gertrude Webster had several older sisters (b.1855-1864 in King's Lynn) who may have married and had sons who could have moved to London and been the right age to be fathering a child in 1907. If the Webster DNA match has a tree with lots of people from Norfolk in it, that would be a very good start, to follow them through to the 1901-1911 censuses.

 

[canadianbeth]

Just to make it clearer for everyone, the 198cM match is between yourself and who? A person called Webster?

Yes, the high match is a person named Christopher Webster. He is also a high match at GED. I have sent messages more than once with no reply.
Any match has to be a half-cousin of some sort, since my Dad was illegitimate; I did look at Peter's chart when I first saw the match a couple of years ago.

Maybe the first step is to sketch out a rough tree around these Websters and see where that leads

I may do that, it does appear that Webster is the name that I am looking for.

My knowledge of English geography is pretty much non existent. I have a partial map on the closet door beside me but London is not there. I was more interested in the Bristol area when I put it up; my maternal grandmother's family is from there and Chipping Sodbury. Barratt's and Bowyer's. I may check out full maps of England on Ancestry, later when I get home from the eye doctor.

Thank you for your help; it has given me some paths to check out.

 

[Pauline]

Any match has to be a half-cousin of some sort, since my Dad was illegitimate

This would only be correct if the match was a descendant of a half sibling of your father. Cousins from further back in the tree, such as descendants of your unknown grandfather’s siblings (assuming they were full siblings), would be full cousins of whatever degree

 

[canadianbeth]

I looked at the match for Christopher again; he has just 39 people listed but his great-grandfather was Arthur James Webster, born 1870 in Norfolk. But his great-grandmother is listed as Ellen Tyce, not Catherine Champion. He is on the 1901 and 1911 census as well as the 1939 register with Ellen. I made a tiny tree with my Dad as main person and just put his mother Anne Joyce and possible father Arthur Webster and will see if I get any hints.

 

[Helen7]

I looked at the match for Christopher again; he has just 39 people listed but his great-grandfather was Arthur James Webster, born 1870 in Norfolk. But his great-grandmother is listed as Ellen Tyce, not Catherine Champion. He is on the 1901 and 1911 census as well as the 1939 register with Ellen. I made a tiny tree with my Dad as main person and just put his mother Anne Joyce and possible father Arthur Webster and will see if I get any hints.

The Arthur James Webster who married Ellen Tyce (in Norwich in 1893) is NOT the brother of Gertrude Webster who married John Francis Attwood. Gertrude and Arthur (plus older brother William and various sisters) were all born in King's Lynn with mother's name DREW. Arthur James Webster's birth in 1870 is registered in Norwich with mother's name WEBB.

 

[Pauline]

I looked at the match for Christopher again; he has just 39 people listed but his great-grandfather was Arthur James Webster, born 1870 in Norfolk. But his great-grandmother is listed as Ellen Tyce, not Catherine Champion. He is on the 1901 and 1911 census as well as the 1939 register with Ellen. I made a tiny tree with my Dad as main person and just put his mother Anne Joyce and possible father Arthur Webster and will see if I get any hints.

Don't forget, your unknown grandfather won't necessarily be an ancestor of your DNA match, or even be shown in his tree. You also need to look sideways from his direct lines for possibilities. Assuming this match could be the link you are looking for, then there there are likely to be a number of his male relatives you need to consider, not just his ancestors.

 

[peter]

In my e-mail today I received a record hint from Family Search for someone who is not in my FTM program, nor is his wife.

Have you considered how this hint might have been generated? If you don't have Attwood or Webster in your tree surely it would suggest that someone else has a tree at FamilySearch that links you to them?

 

[Helen7]

Yes, the high match is a person named Christopher Webster. He is also a high match at GED. I have sent messages more than once with no reply.

Do you have any shared matches with Christopher Webster? If so, looking at their trees might help.

A DNA match of mine whose father was illegitimate found the unknown grandfather (a nephew of my great-grandmother) through shared matches and shared locations. It had been a mystery for a while as the unknown grandfather had a very common name.

 

[canadianbeth]

Do you have any shared matches with Christopher Webster? If so, looking at their trees might help.

I do have shared matches with Christopher. The first one is my niece. Some of his other matches also share my niece. She is both maternal and paternal of course but the others all say paternal. One, Jane Taylor, has even more cM than Christopher - 221, but her shared matches are pretty much the same. Her tree has seven people in it, all private.
On the main page, I have entered Woodford, London in the birth location section with no names and Christopher is at the top. I also have Lydia Page, 190/7, who is shared with Jane and Christopher and my niece. There is also a 3rd cousin on my mother's side, as well as a Joyce 3rd cousin on my Dad's maternal side.

Have you considered how this hint might have been generated? If you don't have Attwood or Webster in your tree surely it would suggest that someone else has a tree at FamilySearch that links you to them?

I had not thought of that; just looked again at the Family Search page and clicked on his tree. To my surprise, I see that John Attwood's father married Elizabeth Joyce, daughter of James Joyce, neither of whom are in my tree (I have other Elizabeth and James Joyce's but not those). So does that mean the Webster is not on my unknown grandfather's side? That James Joyce was born in Hampshire, all my known ones are from Twickenham or Godalming.

The Arthur James Webster who married Ellen Tyce (in Norwich in 1893) is NOT the brother of Gertrude Webster who married John Francis Attwood. Gertrude and Arthur (plus older brother William and various sisters) were all born in King's Lynn with mother's name DREW. Arthur James Webster's birth in 1870 is registered in Norwich with mother's name WEBB.

Great. Two with the same name, both born the same year in the same county. Since it appears that John Attwood is connected to the Joyce family, I hope that the Arthur who was married to Ellen is the correct one, since he is in Christopher's tree. In the little tree I made I changed the birth place to Norwich instead of King's Lynn. I did have a hint this morning for Ellen but it was no help. Bad enough that my grandmother's parents were first cousins, I really hope that the unknown is not also a Joyce.

 

[Pauline]

I see that John Attwood's father married Elizabeth Joyce, daughter of James Joyce, neither of whom are in my tree (I have other Elizabeth and James Joyce's but not those). So does that mean the Webster is not on my unknown grandfather's side? That James Joyce was born in Hampshire, all my known ones are from Twickenham or Godalming.

If the Elizabeth Joyce and her father James Joyce are not those in your tree, then this hint may well be a case of mistaken identity. Joyce is not an uncommon surname and the hint is not telling you that John Francis Attwood and Gertrude Webster are related to you, it is simply raising the possibility for you to investigate further.

I would put this FamilySearch hint to one side for now and focus instead on the Websters in your DNA matches to see if they might lead you to your unknown grandfather. You do at least know these 'DNA Websters' are related to you somehow.

 

[peter]

The high match 198cM/5 segments

Are you sure it's only 5 segments? My matches with similar amounts of shared DNA are more like 10 segments, and I have to go down to 115cM to find anything as low as 5.

 

[canadianbeth]

Are you sure it's only 5 segments? My matches with similar amounts of shared DNA are more like 10 segments, and I have to go down to 115cM to find anything as low as 5.

This is what I have on the page. On GED he is listed as Christopher.
You and C.W.
C.W.'s test is managed by: ellenwebster1
2nd – 3rd Cousin | Paternal side
3% shared DNA: 198 cM across 5 segments