1841 census

[Bazza43]

I'm wishing to post a query about trying to find a missing ancestor on the 1841 census but have no idea where to post it. Any help would be welcome.
Barrie

 

[At home in NZ]

I'm wishing to post a query about trying to find a missing ancestor on the 1841 census but have no idea where to post it. Any help would be welcome.
Barrie

Barrie, I would suggest you post it here.

 

[peter]

It's worth bearing in mind that there are gaps in the 1841 Census - several of my own ancestors were living in areas for which the returns have not survived. If you know where they were living searching by address may help find them, or may prove that the relevant part of the census is missing.

Also see this list of missing 'pieces' at Findmypast.

 

[Bazza43]

If you know where they were living searching by address may help find them, or may prove that the relevant part of the census is missing.

I know where she was living, I found her husband and the rest of the family there, but not her. Was she inadvertently left off? Had she gone off visiting, if so, who with? Family members? Siblings? I would be really good to find her for that reason! Her name was Mary Ann TURNER but given the tendency to omit second names in the 1841 you probably have to sift through all the Mary TURNERs. All the Mary TURNERs in Sheffield including Ecclesall Bierlow appear to have husbands ...
Barrie

 

[At home in NZ]

I know where she was living, I found her husband and the rest of the family there, but not her. Was she inadvertently left off? Had she gone off visiting, if so, who with? Family members? Siblings? I would be really good to find her for that reason! Her name was Mary Ann TURNER but given the tendency to omit second names in the 1841 you probably have to sift through all the Mary TURNERs. All the Mary TURNERs in Sheffield including Ecclesall Bierlow appear to have husbands ...
Barrie

A possibility, she was in the infirmary in a workhouse. this link is about Ecclesall Bierlow workhouse.

This probably a daft question, did you try the next page in the census?

Have you found her siblings in 1841 and looked to see if she was there?

Was she with her husband in the 1851 census?

 

[Bazza43]

A possibility, she was in the infirmary in a workhouse. this link is about Ecclesall Bierlow workhouse.
Not sure about this workhouse, was there a separate Ecclesall Workhouse? If not, I've been in it, as it became the City General Hospital, Now the Northern General, bu my parents knew it as 'the Workhouse.'

This probably a daft question, did you try the next page in the census?

I think I know where you're coming from, and first I should apologize for not stating the full details as Peter says in his introductory lesson. I'll try and attach the image, and if you want to look at the entire page, it's HO 107/1333/4 Folio 16, page 25.

As you can see, the father and three children (Mary here is my great-great-grandmother and both she and her mother are Mary Ann.

Have you found her siblings in 1841 and looked to see if she was there?
Was she with her husband in the 1851 census?

I wish I knew for certain who her siblings were. She is on every subsequent census, with John until he died. In 1861 they had a visitor, Elizabeth BAGSHAW 41 whom I investigated, and whose mother was Hannah ROBINSON, much older than Mary Ann senior, and I've worked on the assumption that Hannah and Mary Ann were sisters, or half sisters, in which case Elizabeth would be Mary Ann senior's niece and Mary Ann junior's first cousin. I found a marriage between John TURNER and Mary Ann ROBINSON on 22 June 1825 at the Sheffield Parish Church, nothing in the marriage record to tie them to my John and Mary Ann (and there's another John and Mary Ann marriage in this church in the same year, to Mary Ann NAYLOR: both marked, and amongst other things, I've assumed that John, as a saw manufacturer, could read and write. I can't prove that either.) And I'm sorry to say that there were no other children born after Alfred here or I would have been able to find her maiden surname for sure.
There's another twist: Mary the daughter was baptized, and appears at least on my great-grandmother's birth record as "Mary Ann Tyzack TURNER/BLOOMER". Why did they give her the surname Tyzack as a forename? I'd have liked to have found a marriage between John TURNER and Mary Ann TYZACK but there doesn't appear to be one. I think there was a Mary TYZACK about that age in Sheffield or environs. The only possibility I haven't followed up was they went off somewhere outside England & Wales to get married. I have tried Scotland, the obvious choice and noting there at least not on the Church of Scotland.
Now to fill in other details gleaned from the census: she was born in Sheffield (all three censuses) and was 47 in 1851, 58 in 1861 and 67 in 1871 wich suggests she was born in 1803 or 4. Mary Ann the daughter of John and Mary ROBINSON was born on 28 June 1803 which fits (almost) perfectly. One avenue I haven't tried is to check out her brother, it she was Mary Ann ROBINSON, then she had a brother Ebenezer and could have been there, but actually I do have his 1841 census and there is no Mary there, not even his wife, also Mary Ann.
Apart from trying Mary TURNERs dwelling in Sheffield on census night, here were 35 Mary TURNERs born in 1803 +/- 1 and 240 who followed the instructions and put 35 as their age (as if born in 1806) and it would take me a year to get through all of those and would I know if I'd found her?? If they're living with a male TURNER of about the same age it's a reasonable assumption she's his wife as were all those on the Sheffield & Ecclesall census. That might rule out 80% or 90% of them which still leaves 27 or more possibilities, and you can't even rule out those who say tey were born in that county, eg Middlesex, where they were that night if the informant was careless or the enumerator simply copied the Y down the page, as happened with my Elizabeth ROBINSON/FORD who appears on the 1891 census for Sheffield as born in Sheffield when she was actually born in Weedon Bec.
Final box: the workhouse or the infirmary, if it was in the registration district of Ecclesall Bierlow or Sheffield she should still come up in my search, unless they didn't know her surname (highly unlikely, I'd have thought) or got it wrong.
Hopefully I've ticked all the boxes, if now you or anyone has any ideas, they'll be most welcome.

 

[Pauline]

I looked for a possible marriage of Ebenezer Robinson, and wondered if he may be the one who married Mary Ann Hattersley in Sheffield in 1820. One of the witnesses at that marriage was a Martha Robinson, and one of the witnesses at the 1825 marriage of John Turner and Mary Ann Robinson was a Martha Otley - Otley also being the surname of a lodger with the Turners in 1851. This then took me to the marriage of Martha Robinson and William Otley in Sheffield in 1824 at which two of the witnesses were Ebenezer Robinson and Mary Ann Robinson. (Full details can be found at FMP.)

So this does seem to give a possible link between your John and Mary Ann Turner, and this Ebenezer and Martha Robinson, which may mean that you have the right marriage and baptism for Mary Ann. I also found a marriage in 1809 between a Mary Robinson widow and a Samuel William Tyzack, but that was in Rotherham so may be just a red herring.

 

[Mitch_in_Notts]

I also found a marriage in 1809 between a Mary Robinson widow and a Samuel William Tyzack, but that was in Rotherham so may be just a red herring.

Could this Mary ROBINSON be the Mother of Mary Ann TURNER - and be a second marriage, and thus the baptism of Mary TURNERs child as Mary Ann Tyzack was an acknowledgment of her stepfather??

 

[Pauline]

Could this Mary ROBINSON be the Mother of Mary Ann TURNER - and be a second marriage, and thus the baptism of Mary TURNERs child as Mary Ann Tyzack was an acknowledgment of her stepfather??

That was my thought as a possibility. I've found the burial of a Mary wife of Samuel Tyzack in 1835 in Sheffield which could relate. But so far it's all speculative, of course.

I wonder if there were wills.

 

[Pauline]

Henry Otley, lodging with the Turners in 1851 and then aged 22, appears to be son of William and Martha Otley. More evidence of a link perhaps, but no sign of the missing Mary Ann Turner with the Otleys in 1841.

 

[Bazza43]

One of the witnesses at that marriage was a Martha Robinson, and one of the witnesses at the 1825 marriage of John Turner and Mary Ann Robinson was a Martha Otley - Otley also being the surname of a lodger with the Turners in 1851

Well spotted, Pauline, you're a legend! Certainly something to follow up. I will check out Martha, and also Mary TYZACK, if I can find her burial I can see when she was born. John ROBINSON married Mary COOPER on 1 Aug 1874 and she was he mother of Hannah ROBINSON/BAGSHAW, but I suspect she may have died and John married another Mary. That would account for a considerable gap in the births of the children of John and Mary (plus I think some of them may have been baptized in a non-conformist church. And I will certainly follow up on any wills. Being a Cutler, there's a reasonable chance he did leave one.
Thanks also to the Moderator for cleaning up my post!

 

[Pauline]

I also found a marriage in 1809 between a Mary Robinson widow and a Samuel William Tyzack,

Just to correct and clarify this, in the original register and BT the groom is given William Samuel Tyzack rather than Samuel William as I wrote before. However, he signs "Samuel Tyzack" and Boyd's marriage index and Family Search both have him as just Samuel Tyzack , which is probably how he ended up as Samuel William in my post.

 

[Bazza43]

Just thought I ought to report progress .....
First I noticed that John TURNER and Mary Ann had as their first witness William ROBINSON. When checking the OTLEYs in 1841 they had a William ROBINSON about five years older living with them. I then noted that Mary, wife of Samuel TYZACK was 70 years old when buried. So if she was the mother of this family, she was old enough to have produced all of them, so John probably was never widowed.
In the parish church records I couldn't find the baptism of a Martha and the only William was the son of William and Mary (another of these to complicate things) and I couldn't find a Martha at all.
So I went on familysearch.org and searched for a Martha ROBINSON baptized anywhere in Sheffield, and found one, born 29 May (my birthday!) 1800 and baptized 29 Jun 1800, daughter of John and Mary, baptized at Queen Street Independent Chapel in Sheffield. So when I searched in that batch number for other children of John and Mary, I found not only William (bapt 22 Mar 1795) but also five other siblings all baptized in that chapel, neatly filling the gap between Elizabeth, sister of Hannah and Ebenezer. All of this is just what was transcribed by FHS of Utah volunteers, there may be more, and if these records are at the National Archives then they should be viewable online, I forget where but nodoubt will find out soon.
Meanwhile, John ROBINSON appears to have died and been buried on 6 Jan 1804, so Mary Ann would never have really known him. And yes, he did leave a will, or at least I assume it's him, proved in May 1804, so I've put in a request for it. I'm expecting it will be £7.50 well spent! Unfortunately at St Paul's church, very sparse information (except that he's a cutler) and of course no age a death.
So I think that I have now fairly convincing proof that Mary Ann wife of Jon TURNER was in fact Mary Ann ROBINSON, daughter of John and Mary (COOPER) and also a fairly convincing story for why their daughter was named Mary Ann Tyzack. And also nine siblings where I had only three possible ones.
Now here's a much taller order: I'd like to know whether this John ROBINSON, whose year of birth I don't know is related to my patrilineal William ROBINSON, who is another very long standing brick wall.
Anyway, it's all down to Pauline's acute observation for which I am truly grateful!

Barrie

 

[Pauline]

if these records are at the National Archives then they should be viewable online, I forget where but no doubt will find out soon.

Digitised images are available at Ancestry, FMP and the Genealogist.

 

[Bazza43]

Meanwhile, John ROBINSON appears to have died and been buried on 6 Jan 1804,

Since all of the above, I have found two wills for John ROBINSON and received the copies from the Borthwick institute, one who died in Jan 1804, another who died in January 1807. I've just checked and the only other John Robinson wills proved for Sheffield between 1801 and 1841 are in 1820 and 1839 respectively, long after Mary his widow supposedly married Samuel William TYZACK in 1809. And after Mary TYZACK wife of Samuel William died I think too.
I probably need to move this query to the Wills and Probate forum as I'm wondering if he could have disposed of his estate in some way without a will or adminstration. (He's not the only one!)

 

[Bazza43]

I have found two wills for John ROBINSON and received the copies from the Borthwick institute, one who died in Jan 1804, another who died in January 1807.

Sorry, I omitted to say that neither of these fit John and Mary, as they have children with quite different names.