Death and Burial place

[jenata]

Hello,

I have looking for the above for my gt gt grandfather, for well over 10 yrs and found nothing.
Name William Garner, born 1843 Brackley, Northants, Chr 1844 Brackley.
wife died in 1909 at Eydon, buried St Nicholas Eydon, William is not there.
1921 census, age 80 ( living with son George and wife Charlotte at Warwickshire) age is wrong as he was born 1843 and not 1841. address is Monks Kirby RD, Rugby Division of Warwickshire

Looked up E .Rolls but can't find him, or perhaps looking in the wrong place, quite hard to do from New Zealand.

I would like someone to look up the E Rolls / Registrar for William please. or tell me how to do it.
Thank you

 

[At home in NZ]

Hello,

I have looking for the above for my gt gt grandfather, for well over 10 yrs and found nothing.
Name William Garner, born 1843 Brackley, Northants, Chr 1844 Brackley.
wife died in 1909 at Eydon, buried St Nicholas Eydon, William is not there.
1921 census, age 80 ( living with son George and wife Charlotte at Warwickshire) age is wrong as he was born 1843 and not 1841. address is Monks Kirby RD, Rugby Division of Warwickshire

Looked up E .Rolls but can't find him, or perhaps looking in the wrong place, quite hard to do from New Zealand.

I would like someone to look up the E Rolls / Registrar for William please. or tell me how to do it.
Thank you

There are electoral roll records in Ancestry. Maybe try looking for George and Charlotte in an electoral roll as William could be listed at the same address.
Being in NZ myself, I don't let it be a barrier to research as most things can be found online.

You could try the GRO Online Index for William's death, there is a possibility his name is incorrect in death records that have been transcribed which is why you can't find him.

 

[Tim]

What was William Garner b1843 mother's maiden name?

 

[peter]

quite hard to do from New Zealand

It shouldn't make a lot of difference where you are based - most family historians in England haven't visited a record office for at least a couple of years, and some have never been to one.

Historic electoral registers that are online do not cover the entire country - they are patchy. However if I was looking for someone's death and burial place I wouldn't normally consider electoral registers as at best they'll online provide clues as to when someone might have died. However if he died in England or Wales his death will be recorded in the death indexes, and if you haven't found him it may well because you've only searched at only one of the many sites where these can be found.

DeceasedOnline is the best site for finding 20th century burials, and a search is free.

 

[jenata]

What was William Garner b1843 mother's maiden name?

Her name is Garner.

 

[jenata]

It shouldn't make a lot of difference where you are based - most family historians in England haven't visited a record office for at least a couple of years, and some have never been to one.

Historic electoral registers that are online do not cover the entire country - they are patchy. However if I was looking for someone's death and burial place I wouldn't normally consider electoral registers as at best they'll online provide clues as to when someone might have died. However if he died in England or Wales his death will be recorded in the death indexes, and if you haven't found him it may well because you've only searched at only one of the many sites where these can be found.

DeceasedOnline is the best site for finding 20th century burials, and a search is free.

Thanks for your reply, very much appreciated

 

[jenata]

There are electoral roll records in Ancestry. Maybe try looking for George and Charlotte in an electoral roll as William could be listed at the same address.
Being in NZ myself, I don't let it be a barrier to research as most things can be found online.

You could try the GRO Online Index for William's death, there is a possibility his name is incorrect in death records that have been transcribed which is why you can't find him.

Thanks for your reply, yes been to those sites but nothing as turned up.

 

[At home in NZ]

Her name is Garner.

Was she Martha, married to John Chatwell? If so, she was named Martha Gardner (with a d) in the parish marriage register.
William appears as William Gardner, William Chatwell and William Garner in records I have seen.
I can't find his baptism record, if you have the parish register how is his name spelt and is it the same as in the birth registration?

Have you tried looking for William Gardner?

 

[Heather]

Hi Jenata, I can see your problem, maybe if we had a few more details, someone may be able to help. Did William marry Ann Hone in Brackley Dec qtr 1872? Did William have a middle name? There is a death in FreeBMD for a Ann Garner, June qtr 1909 in Brackley but her age is 61 which does not tally with the age given in the census records for 1881, 1891 and 1901. Have you considered that his name has been mistranscribed as Gardner, as there are three William Gardner deaths in Warwickshire in 1924, 1925 and 1927 the right age?

 

[peter]

A few things to bear in mind: Monks Kirby is close to the border with Leicestershire, and in fact Monks Kirby is in Lutterworth registration district, which straddles the border (Lutterworth itself is in Leicestershire). Another is that age at death is often inaccurate when the person who has died is the last of their generation - you've already pointed out the error in the 1921 Census, which is otherwise remarkably accurate compared to earlier censuses. Older people tend to exaggerate their age and when old age pensions were introduced in 1909 (with a qualifying age of 70) there was a financial incentive to do so.

Also it's not a good idea to use the abbreviation RD when the context does not make clear what meaning is intended, since it can stand for either Rural District, as in this case, or Registration District - the latter being much more relevant when BMD entries are sought.


GENERAL ADVICE FOR ANYONE SEEKING HELP

When asking for help always say where you have already looked and what you have looked for - don't wait to be asked. Be precise, for example, if you have searched the death indexes, specify which sites you have used (eg Findmypast, FreeBMD, GRO, Ancestry etc), the years covered by your searches (eg 1921-1931), the range for calculated year at birth (eg 1839-1845), the name(s) for which you have searched, and the geographical area (eg counties, registration districts). This will enable those assisting to ask questions such as "Why did you limit your search to....?" or "Have you also considered....?", or to suggest resources you may have forgotten (or be unaware of).

This page from the blog of Dr Janet Few, one of the experts who has donated her brick wall busting services in this year's competition, sets out clearly what to do before enlisting assistance, and what information to provide if you still need help after following those steps.

 

[Susan48]

This page from the blog of Dr Janet Few, one of the experts who has donated her brick wall busting services in this year's competition, sets out clearly what to do before enlisting assistance, and what information to provide if you still need help after following those steps.

I have just followed the link to the blog and would highly recommend it as something to refer to when you think you've explored all possibilities.

 

[At home in NZ]

I have just followed the link to the blog and would highly recommend it as something to refer to when you think you've explored all possibilities.

I agree, I have added it to my extensive collection of Genealogy Bookmarks.

 

[jenata]

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions.

Have read the link page that Peter put up, interesting tips. Yes Martha did marry John Chatwell in 1848.
Free BMD, have William's birth record down as Male Gardner 1843 Q4 Brackley. Christened 1844 as Howard Gardner at Brackley, Find my past.
Have been over my research many times, trying different combo's eg Howard Gardner, Howard Garner, nothing turns up.
William Gardner, William Garner, William Chatwell, William H Garner, Gardner, even tried using Bill , still nothing.

I then went over to the electoral rolls and tired allsorts of combo's to try to find William in the 1922 /3 rolls but can't seem to find him.
In the 1920 roll found William living with another son Samuel and Florence, living Bulkington, Bedworth, Nuneaton.
In 1921 census William, found with another son George and Charlotte at Monks Kirby, Rugby address which was on the census.
However I found George and Charlotte, 1922 roll, living Parish of Stretton under Fosse, Newbold Revel, Rugby. no William. 1923 roll, still at the same place, no William. Sure there plenty of William's but with different people.

Samuel and Florence on later rolls, No William.

If William passed away living with George and Charlotte, what is the registration area, would it be Nuneaton or Rugby. Warwick?
Also could have been put in a workhouse, if so, he would still be registered, and what would the nearest one be, to George and Charlotte ?

The Warwickshire deaths seem to fit in with his right age, so I have run them up on other sites, and from memory the H stands for Horace (1923 death year).

 

[At home in NZ]

f William passed away living with George and Charlotte, what is the registration area, would it be Nuneaton or Rugby. Warwick?

You might find this about the Nuneaton registration district helpful.

 

[At home in NZ]

Also could have been put in a workhouse, if so, he would still be registered, and what would the nearest one be, to George and Charlotte ?

You will find this website will answer that question, a link to the locations is at the left hand side.

 

[peter]

Free BMD, have William's birth record down as Male Gardner 1843 Q4 Brackley. Christened 1844 as Howard Gardner at Brackley, Find my past.

It would have helped if you had told us at the outset that he was illegitimate. The baptism transcript you found at Findmypast shows his mother as Martha Gardner - but it has been sourced from FamilySearch. Have you obtained a copy of the baptism register entry, bearing in mind that it may give additional information?

What details does the birth certificate give for the mother (and perhaps father)? What evidence is there that Howard Gardner and William Garner are the same person?

The Warwickshire deaths seem to fit in with his right age, so I have run them up on other sites

What sites? What were you looking for and what did you find?

Why are you so keen to find his death and burial? I'd be more interested in his ancestors.

 

[Pauline]

Why are you so keen to find his death and burial? I'd be more interested in his ancestors.

I think it’s a good idea to get details of deaths and burials if you can, as there may be information in those records which is helpful in tracing ancestors, and can even reveal previously unknown offspring and addresses etc. They may lead to wills or obituaries as well, although the reverse is also possible.

Being unable to find the death and/or burial of an ancestor or family member always feels to me like unfinished business.

 

[peter]

I think it’s a good idea to get details of deaths and burials if you can, as there may be information in those records which is helpful in tracing ancestors, and can even reveal previously unknown offspring and addresses etc. They may lead to wills or obituaries as well, although the reverse is also possible.

Being unable to find the death and/or burial of an ancestor or family member always feels to me like unfinished business.

I didn't say that one should never search for deaths and burials, but in this case jenata is much more likely to advance her research by purchasing the birth entry and viewing the baptism register entry, neither of which she appears to have done so far.

 

[At home in NZ]

I didn't say that one should never search for deaths and burials, but in this case jenata is much more likely to advance her research by purchasing the birth entry and viewing the baptism register entry, neither of which she appears to have done so far.

In jenata's defence, she did find the baptism record, it was mentioned as a christening in 1844 in her opening thread.
I found the birth record in the GRO, a male was registered as Gardner without a first name and no mother's maiden name.
The baptism occurred on 15 Jan 1844, birth date was given 17 Nov 1843. At Brackley, Northamptonshire.
Name Howard, son of Martha Gardner a spinster.

jenata confirmed the mother's maiden name and that she married John Chatwell. I found the record in 1848, in Brackley. Her name was registered as Gardner.

In 1851 census, Martha and John Chattwell with William Garner age 7, born in Brackley. he is noted as 'wife's son'.
In 1861 census Martha and John have a son John and William is listed as William Gardner.
In 1871 census Martha and John have a son John and a daughter Mary.
William is listed as William Chatwell, a widower. I haven't looked for a marriage. but I did find his subsequent marriage.
14 Oct 1872 a widowed William Garner married Anne Hone, a spinster. In Brackley.

It would seem that Martha changed her mind about calling her son Howard, we can only speculate why.
I've done everything I would do for my own ancestor in order to find the death record and like jenata I have drawn a blank. However, there are better researchers than me

 

[peter]

In jenata's defence, she did find the baptism record

Whilst jenata found a transcript of the record at Findmypast, she apparently didn't notice that it had originated at FamilySearch (this is important because FamilySearch transcribers did not note any additional information recorded in baptism registers - transcribers from family history societies generally do); jenata also didn't seem to be aware that there were images of the registers at Ancestry.

What I'm trying to do is help jenata and others learn how to solve problems themselves - hence the link to Dr Few's post and the Masterclass. Solving somebody's problems for them can have the opposite effect.

jenata confirmed the mother's maiden name

She did, but she didn't bother mentioning that the child was illegitimate, and she still hasn't told us whether she has a copy of the birth register entry. Bear in mind that it doesn't give the child's name, so without viewing the entry and checking the mother's forename and date of birth she can't be sure it's the same boy. There's also a faint possibility that the father's name will be shown - it's not likely because there is only one index entry, but it's such important information that it has to be followed up.