LIVER AND BACON WITH OR WITHOUT ONIONS - THE AMBROSIA OF THE GODS

[peter]

We don't always use the same accent as our parents

Our accents ALWAYS come from what we hear - but which people influence us most will vary depending on the circumstances. Sometimes we consciously imitate others, often it's completely unconscious, and as a result our accents may change without us being aware of it.

 

[jorghes]

Well I wonder which one they use in Western Australia? On our first visit to Perth we thought that the hotel receptionist was from NZ (it's the vowels)
until we discovered that, to our ears, the other locals sounded the same.
A different speech pattern, not so much an accent, was from Newcastle, NSW. Years ago when I lived in Sydney I often visited Newcastle representing an organisation to which I belonged. Hard to describe, their turn of phrase was quite distinctive and one often had to concentrate to get their meaning.
Also, as a child I noticed that my friends who attended the local Convent would say "Aye-men" whereas we protestants would say "Ah-men". I now believe that this was the result of having Irish Priests and Nuns.

I always think NZ's accent is closer to South Africa's than Australian! (but yes, most definitely the vowels)

There aren't any (yet) localised Australian accents. Most Aussies use the General Australian accent. The other two are Cultivated (think someone with a pseudo-Received Pronunciation version of Aussie) and Broad (that's the "Ocker" accent). The "non-official" two are Aboriginal (particularly when people are speaking Aboriginal Australian English) and the Ethnic Accent - which is a bit of a mash up and spoken by those of Italian / Lebanese / Greek extraction. I can direct you to certain actors if you'd like an example.

Otherwise there are small lexical and phonological differences between the states, but they aren't pronounced enough to be considered seperate varieties of Australian English. This is like the different words for a swimming costume (bathers, cozzie, togs etc), or the deep fried potato treat (potato cakes, potato scollops); the main difference in pronunciation is with the "a" that you find in words like "advance", "castle", the difference is easiest to spot in the pronunciation of Newcastle (New-karsl) in NSW compared to Castlemaine (Ka-sl-main) in VIC.

I would say as Australian English gets older (it's only been 233 years since settlement/colonisation) the regional accents will slowly become more distinct, and you could then say that someone from Perth had a different accent to those from QLD.

 

[Margery]

small lexical and phonological differences between the states

Some years ago a friend and I flew to Melbourne (Victoria) for a conference. We were met at the airport by a woman who introduced herself as Elma. It wasn't until a day or two later when we saw her name badge that we discovered that her name was actually Alma!

 

[At home in NZ]

Some years ago a friend and I flew to Melbourne (Victoria) for a conference. We were met at the airport by a woman who introduced herself as Elma. It wasn't until a day or two later when we saw her name badge that we discovered that her name was actually Alma!

She must have been a Kiwi.

 

[Margery]

She must have been a Kiwi.

Bob, I should have said that her fellow Victorians allso called her Elma.

 

[Margery]

Bob, I should have said

Oops, sorry AHiNZ, posted that without proof reading.

 

[At home in NZ]

Bob, I should have said that her fellow Victorians allso called her Elma.

I'm not Bob
pure coincidence then that Victorians speak like New Zealanders.
We (partner and I) are English and always on alert when we listen to the TV news. One of the sports commentators is a real broad Kiwi, he is on ear (air) when he talks to us.

 

[Bryman]

She must have been a Kiwi.

I thought that Kiwis are easily recognized by the elongation of single 'e' characters to become double 'ee's, as in one NZ radio advert for bedding which refers to 'beest beeds'.

 

[jorghes]

Bob, I should have said that her fellow Victorians also called her Elma.

As a Victorian (and Melbournian for most of my life!), I still retain the "A" at the start of Alma. And I think most people here would - there is a change linguistically for Victorians (which is mimicked by a similar one in NZ, although they're different vowels), which are making the "Ellen" and "Allan" sound the same (it's triggered by the liquid 'l' that follows) - but the strange part is, that change is making "Ellen" sound like "Allan", not the other way around!

I thought that Kiwis are easily recognized by the elongation of single 'e' characters to become double 'ee's, as in one NZ radio advert for bedding which refers to 'beest beeds'.

I often recognise Kiwis by their shorter vowels - like "fush and chups". But then Australians are particularly good at it (like Canadians are good at pointing out an American) since people seem to struggle differentiating our accents - and they're only across the ditch (Kiwi more like "dutch") after all!

 

[Bob Spiers]

pure coincidence then that Victorians speak like New Zealanders.

I have a sister who would go ten rounds with you on that Statement. She, a Victorian through and through -well since 1968 anyway -and before that a Brummie like me. I've lost count of the times we have had humorous banter on both Oz versus Oz variations and of course the Oz versus NZ. Her favourite NZ variation has already been mentioned - 'pin' for pen; and I recall 'fush' (and chips) for fish and -her favourite - 'sex' for six. I often ask I wonder what Kiwis think of Victorians and she says she already knows and has had spoken with a fair few Kiwi visitors. Lovely people, but apart from the fact we speak the same language... "they sound nothing like Victorians". To which I add: "especially those with Brummie overtones" (and that is usually her reaction ).

I remind her she comes from a country with so many regional overtones it is not at all surprising that Oz inter-state dialects vary. She agrees and reminds she has Queensland friends who pronounce things 'a bit different' and adds they (her friends at least) always seem to finish a sentence with 'but'! (Don't ask). (I likened that to people in the UK who when asked a question always start with 'So',)

She also recalled when she and her first husband ran a 'Wimpy' type bar in Melbourne (many years past) and going to the large Fruit & Veg market for supplies, they could not understand the Stallholders when calling out their wares (how very English). They sounded a lot like London Barrow boys speaking Cockney (and I think she picked that up from films). She said it took ages before we understood what they were saying.

So, (starting a sentence with 'so) emulating the way John Cleese speaks in the opening lines of the 'Cheese shop' sketch(in an exaggerated northern accent) ..."Ee we all speak a bit different like"

 

[peter]

'beest beeds'

Which is how an Afrikaans-influenced South African would talk. I think someone mentioned the similarity earlier.

 

[At home in NZ]

Which is how an Afrikaans-influenced South African would talk. I think someone mentioned the similarity earlier.

Someone also mentioned Swedish people speaking with an American accent (Yes, Peter, you). On our TV news last night there was an item about Abba and their new music endeavour. The women declined to speak on camera but the guys had plenty to say and definitely did not have an American accent. Greta Thunberg does not have a trace of American in her speech either.

 

[peter]

Yes, I mentioned Scandinavians speaking English with an American accent - these were people I met in the 1980s. I didn't meet Abba, but looking at old YouTube clips there is a slight trace of American in the way the men spoke (see this 1975 interview).

 

[Bob Spiers]

but the strange part is, that change is making "Ellen" sound like "Allan", not the other way around!

Which reminds of meeting an Alan on my first visit to Australia in 2001. He was one time work mate and subsequently a best friend of my first brother-in-law. Alan was a typical Ozzie Sports fanatic who lived, breathed and played SPORT. A visiting Pom was just the ticket for him to remind -with a degree of humour of course, but with serious undertone - that England may have invented Cricket but Australia had showed how it should be played. "We could forget about the Ashes, they were in Australia and there they would stay"

He could never quite get his head around my reaction as a non-sports person (he didn't even know of anyone in Oz who wasn't a sports person) so when I agreed with him (also with humour, but I think it went over his head) that it was nice of Australia to show us how things should be played, adding the same with athletics, swimming, and rugby (without any real knowledge that any of this was deserved, but it appealed to his Oz vanity that I thought it to be so), so he took an instant shine to me.

I remember asking what had happened with Soccer as I remembered from my father that Australia rules football, was totally different. He told me that Oz had decided to improve on the game which had proven too difficult for anyone outside of Australia to follow never mind play.

But things picked up when I asked how he felt about the prowess of the Kiwis to give Oz a run for their money with Rugby. This was obviously a touchy subject, because as well as telling about them 'prancing about' before a match (he meant the Haka of course) he couldn't resist mentioning Kiwi pronunciations; especially when meeting visiting Kiwi teams playing his local team. "They can't even pronounce my name correctly" (at which his wife with a smile added that visiting Kiwis pronounced his name as "ELLEN" - which I interpreted as HELEN). I found it hard to keep a straight face and this turned to laughter when she added, not only that but the Kiwis had beaten his local Melbourne team on the last two occasions. The conversation quickly changed to non-sport subjects which came as a relief.

In case I have painted him in the wrong light I will make amends by telling that both Alan and his wife were great hosts (we stayed with them in Melbourne over a long weekend). His wife was a fantastic cook, and Alan had a remarkable wine collection which he generously shared. So the 6 of us - my sister and husband, my wife and I and our two hosts - had a great weekend which included a tour of Melbourne*.

Alan was just potty about sport and the pedestal on which he regarded Australia in the playing of same. I can only say It was just a good job he only had me to content with and not my father who would have been as knowledgeable on British sport as Alan was for Australia. But the weekend may not have been so cosy of course.

*Which reminds I was told not to say MEL-BORN but MEL-BERN with the 'ER' silent so MEL-BN.

 

[Helen7]

Alan was just potty about sport and the pedestal on which he regarded Australia in the playing of same. I can only say It was just a good job he only had me to content with and not my father who would have been as knowledgeable on British sport as Alan was for Australia.

I was very interested to read about your sports fanatic Aussie acquaintance. This reminds me of a book our Australian-based son brought over and gave us on his last visit, which was a 'Secret Santa' gift he'd received - no doubt because he's an English cricket fan. The book is entitled 'Bradman's Best', subtitled 'Sir Donald Bradman's Selection of the Best Team in Cricket History'. Perhaps not surprisingly, it's rather biased, as the team selection contains 7 Australians and only one Englishman (Alec Bedser) - the other 3 being one Indian, one West Indian and one South African (you can probably guess who they are - I could and I'm not much of a cricket fan). It illustrates, as you say, that Aussie sports people - and cricketers in particular - clearly regard their players as 'the best'.

Incidentally, whilst my son likes to watch cricket (and has been known to stay up all night watching The Ashes, in both England and Oz) he's not much of a sports fan generally, has no interest in football, rugby, etc. and has never played any sports. I remember when we visited the MGC and the nearby tennis complex in Melbourne Park and saw the statue of Rod Laver, I was shocked when my son said he'd never heard of him (before his time, I suppose!)

 

[Helen7]

we visited the MGC

Of course I meant the MCG

 

[Margery]

I was told not to say MEL-BORN but MEL-BERN with the 'ER' silent so MEL-BN.

If we are going to visit the controversial topic of place-name pronunciation here is my offering: My sister-in-law lives in a delightful town on the south coast of NSW named Helensburgh which is pronounced Helensberg, or to the locals, "The Berg". My English/Scottish cousin was horrified when she heard this.

 

[jorghes]

*Which reminds I was told not to say MEL-BORN but MEL-BERN with the 'ER' silent so MEL-BN.

Australians, particularly Victorians - are very parochial about their sport. If you go to the right places in Melbourne you can watch pretty much any football code - AFL, rugby union, rugby league, soccer and gridiron. Plus anything else you feel like you want to watch!

"Mel-bin" also works, although it's probably more like "Melb'n". That same pronunciation goes for the other Victorian places - Cranbourne (Cran-burn) and Goulburn (Goal-burn).

Of course I meant the MCG

Colloquially referred to as simply 'The 'G'. Melbourne Park (the tennis centre) is well worth the visit, even if your son has never heard of Rod Laver! There are plenty more sporting statues around the precinct now, which includes both cricket and AFL players.

If we are going to visit the controversial topic of place-name pronunciation here is my offering: My sister-in-law lives in a delightful town on the south coast of NSW named Helensburgh which is pronounced Helensberg, or to the locals, "The Berg". My English/Scottish cousin was horrified when she heard this.

My favourites are the ones where the spelling is simply misleading - one of the inner suburbs of Melbourne is Prahran - pronounced "Pah-ran/P'ran", or country centre - Traralgon (T'ralgon').

I think the problems often either come with those names we have that come from Indigenous languages (think Wagga Wagga - "wog-a wog-a", or Biloela - bill-o-will-ah) but equally when we have a name that has been "imported", but we don't pronounce it the same - think Bathurst (Bath-est) or Launceston (Lon-cess-ton).

Or if you're really lucky - something spelt the same but pronounced completely differently depending on what state you're in! Coojee for example - Koo-jee in WA and Could-jee in NSW.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Helensburgh which is pronounced Helensberg, or to the locals, "The Berg". My English/Scottish cousin was horrified when she heard this.

Likewise our widow neighbour who each year spends the festive season at a hotel in Eastbourne, when I humorously mentioned that in Australia she would be going to Eastb'n.

 

[Bob Spiers]

Or if you're really lucky - something spelt the same but pronounced completely differently depending on what state you're in! Coojee for example - Koo-jee in WA and Could-jee in NSW

One does not have to travel far to come across that even in the UK and Kent where I live. There is a river in Kent known as the STOUR (will leave aside pronunciation for the moment) and it has Stour tributaries and prefixes Great Stour, Upper Great Stour, West Stour, East Stour. It is part tidal and flows into the North Sea at Pegwell Bay. But to return to how it is pronounced - and bear in mind all in the SAME County of Kent.

We live near Canterbury where the Stour (officially the Great Stour) is pronounced 'STOWER'. But if you go less than 15 miles south west towards Ashford the same river (now officially the East Stour) become the 'STOOER'. When I first moved to Kent I worked in Ashford and recall being pulled up for mis-pronouncing the name of the local river. I said I thought it was the same river as the one that flowed through Canterbury, and being told it was an arm of the same river. So I asked why they called in the 'Stooer' instead of 'Stower' and had to settle for an answer like "because it has always been the Stooer". Years later they built a large Sports cum Entertainment Centre in Ashford, and named it the Stour Centre . As you might guess in the town it was known as the Stooer Centre.

Depending on whether born North/South/East/West of Kent's major river the Medway, natives are either known as Kentish Man or Man of Kent (yes I know very sexist in today's world). Whether this has anything to do with variations in pronunciations I know not, but it may play its part. But when it comes to its second major river the Stour I understand (from natives) that the pronunciation STOWER holds sway for the most part to which I say...tell that to native Ashfordians.