Whatever happened to baby Doris?

[At home in NZ]

I have found a marriage record for Doris Wells Gregory to Edward David Warner. Doris's father's name is given and he is noted as deceased. It was fairly common for illegitimate brides or grooms to invent a deceased father.
The record is in Ancestry, date was 17 Aug 1930, Doris's age is given as 21 therefore born in 1909.

Although the marriage took place in Lambeth, I have several instances in my family trees where people from the West Ham Registration District have moved to Lambeth and vice versa.

I would be inclined to say that is what happened to baby Doris.

 

[jorghes]

[On a side note, I have to say I like your new profile shot...!]

 

[ValleyM]

I to found this marriage record for Doris Wells Gregory (father's name John Edward Gregory, deceased) so to check a birth date for her I searched the 1939 UK Register and found her living with her husband Edward and possibly a son David at 76 Mounteath Gns., Wandsworth, London and sure enough her birth date is 20th March, 1909. She died 11/1993 Lambeth Greater London (birth date 20th March, 1909)

At first I went looking for a C.C. Gregory (informant on Birth Certificate) of 18 Maybank Cottages, Maybank Road, Woodford, Essex in the 1911 UK Census. You can search by address on FindMyPast so I tried there and sure enough a Cyril Charles Gregory, his wife Mabel (nee Fox) and 2 children are living at this address, but no Ethel Gregory or Doris. At first thought the daughter Dorothy Isabel aged 3 could have been Doris but after checking births on the GRO found Dorothy Isabel Gregory was born Dec Qtr 1907. I then found Cyril C. Gregory in the 1891 UK Census together with his father Charles and mother Isabel and six siblings, one of which was an Ethel D. Gregory aged 7.

On Ancestry I also found a marriage for Ethel Daisy Gregory and John Glover on 8th July, 1914 at St Mary the Virgin, Walthamstow, Essex, her father Charles James Gregory. Found John Glover's WWI record with Ethel as his next of kin and listing 2 children, both boys. No mention of Doris.

Nothing else to do today sitting in Melbourne, Victoria under Stage 4 Lockdown, what joy. Thanks Peter.

 

[Angel54]

I was intrigued by the middle name of Wells as I have an ancestor that has the same middle name and was also classed as "illegitimate". Laura Wells Hurlston was born in 1868 in Evenlode, Worcestershire and I found that her father was my great grandfather whose surname was Gardner. Where the name Wells came from is a mystery but I have come across other unrelated persons, also illegitimate, with the middle name of Wells. I am wondering if this was an indication of some sort that the church, villagers, call it what you will, put on an illegitimate birth. My ancestor's baptism record is the only place it occurs as it doesn't seem to appear in any other documents. Anyone got any thoughts?

 

[peter]

I have come across other unrelated persons, also illegitimate, with the middle name of Wells. I am wondering if this was an indication of some sort that the church, villagers, call it what you will, put on an illegitimate birth

I very much doubt it. In most cases it would have been the surname of the putative father. Occasionally it might be the maiden name of the mother's mother (eg where the mother was also illegitimate).

Has anyone found Doris on the 1911 Census? If she's living with a man described as her father it's unlikely to be my grandfather as he was recorded living with his parents.

 

[Susan48]

There is a Doris Wells Dyer, born 1909 in Woodford, Essex, the daughter of John Ernest Dyer and his wife Ann in Christchurch, Surrey. I looked for a birth on FreeBMD for a Doris Dyer but none came up. Possible?

 

[MeganN]

Susan48's report has just popped in while I was preparing the following:

Searching the 1911 Census at Ancestry for Doris using just her first name, no surname, born 1909 in Woodford Essex yields a DORIS WELLS DYER (Class: RG14; Piece: 1760). Her age of 2 had been mistranscribed as 5 but corrected. She is with parents John Ernest and Ann Dyer, two step siblings with surname Foster aged 17 and 15, and what appears to be a full sibling Amy Hilda Dyer age 8. Parents have been married 11 years, 2 children both living. BUT whereas a search of the GRO index gives Amy Hilda Dyer, mother's maiden name Foster, born 1902 S Quarter in West Ham RD, I can find no GRO record for a Doris Dyer with mother Foster born 1909 +/-2. Could this be Doris Gregory, taken in by the Dyers and reported as their birth child? If so why?

Meanwhile, where was Ethel Daisy Gregory in 1911? Essex Baptisms at Ancestry shows her as being baptised at Walthamstow St Mary the Virgin at age 6, birth date recorded as 5 Jul 1883, parents Charles James Gregory and Isabel Lydia Gregory. We therefore expect her to be recorded as age 27 in 1911. Sure enough, searching for Ethel Daisy Gregory born 1884 in Essex finds her enumerated as Daisy Gregory, age 27, living with her parents and two younger sisters in Low Leyton (Class: RG14; Piece: 9660; Schedule Number: 31). Also in the household is a granddaughter, but it isn't Doris. Rather it is Marjorie Gregory age 5 who is missing on census night from the household of Ethel Daisy's brother Cyril Charles (record already found by ValleyM). Two living children are reported but only one (Dorothy) is with her parents; the fourth person in the household is an adult visitor.

Where does this leave us? Ethel Daisy Gregory whose daughter Doris was born at the home of her brother Cyril, is with her parents two years later and no sign of Doris. There is, however, a Doris of the right age, born in the right place and with second name Wells, living in Southwark with John and Ann Dyer nee Foster. However no birth registration found for a Doris Dyer with mother Foster. If this is Ethel Gregory's daughter it remains to be seen how this came about.

 

[Angel54]

Definitely not her mother's maiden name nor anyone else's in the family either Peter. Nor does it belong to anyone else in her circumstances apparently. My family was mystified for many years until a bible was found in a great uncle's possessions after his death revealing great aunt Laura's father. It seems that her middle name of Wells remains a mystery. Mega N's investigation brought a smile to my face as Dyer was my great great grandmother's name, Laura's grandmother and Essex was where my Dyer ancestors hailed from.

 

[peter]

Very interesting . perhaps Doris was literally living with a foster mother?

 

[At home in NZ]

Very interesting . perhaps Doris was literally living with a foster mother?

Peter, I have a sneaking suspicion you already know the answer and posed the question to test the research powers of those of us who could be bothered.
Will all be revealed in the next newsletter?

 

[peter]

Peter, I have a sneaking suspicion you already know the answer and posed the question to test the research powers of those of us who could be bothered.
Will all be revealed in the next newsletter?

Normally I do know the answer to questions I pose in the newsletter, but not on this occasion.

Where does this leave us? Ethel Daisy Gregory whose daughter Doris was born at the home of her brother Cyril, is with her parents two years later and no sign of Doris. There is, however, a Doris of the right age, born in the right place and with second name Wells, living in Southwark with John and Ann Dyer nee Foster. However no birth registration found for a Doris Dyer with mother Foster. If this is Ethel Gregory's daughter it remains to be seen how this came about.

As MeganN presumably discovered, the two eldest children of Ann Dyer nee Foster (shown as her husband's stepdaughter and stepson) were illegitimate, which makes it even more intriguing. The elder daughter Amy was baptised in 1902, but I can't find a baptism in Essex for a Doris Dyer in Essex or London.

It certainly looks as if Doris Dyer is Doris Gregory, but how to prove it?

 

[At home in NZ]

It certainly looks as if Doris Dyer is Doris Gregory, but how to prove it?

DNA?
It was DNA that found the father of my illegitimate mother-in-law who was born in 1906.

I was still busy researching when the latest newsletter arrived.
I was going to suggest looking for the employer of Daisy and her sisters because they are miliner's assistants and/or draper's assistant in various records.
The family lived in Beulah Rd, Walthamstow which appears to have been a main shopping centre. It could be that the sisters worked at a department store and perhaps the father of baby Doris also worked there?

 

[peter]

DNA?

How would that work? Remember, she married as Doris Gregory.

I was going to suggest looking for the employer of Daisy and her sisters because they are milliner's assistants and/or draper's assistant in various records. The family lived in Beulah Rd, Walthamstow which appears to have been a main shopping centre. It could be that the sisters worked at a department store and perhaps the father of baby Doris also worked there?

It's certainly possible, but unless my grandfather was her biological father - and he was a boilermaker - I've no personal interest in her. It's just one of those curious things that we come across during our research.

 

[At home in NZ]

unless my grandfather was her biological father - and he was a boilermaker - I've no personal interest in her

It now seems unlikely to me that he was her biological father.
As for 'how would it work' it doesn't matter what her name was when she married, she has descendants and if a DNA match to your grandfather raised it's head it would be Bingo!

 

[peter]

As for 'how would it work' it doesn't matter what her name was when she married, she has descendants and if a DNA match to your grandfather raised it's head it would be Bingo!

That's true of course, but the question I asked was how to prove that Doris Dyer on the 1911 Census is Doris Gregory - I can't see how DNA is going to help with that.

 

[MeganN]

It's just one of those curious things that we come across during our research.

Indeed it is, and I've continued to wonder how baby Doris arrived with the Dyer-Foster family, assuming that the child in the 1911 Census is the daughter of Ethel Daisy Gregory (which seems strongly the case). In the latest newsletter Peter observed that Ann Dyer nee Foster had two older children born in Edmonton and pointed out that this is not far from Walthamstow. But I believe there is a much closer geographical connection.

Amy Hilda Dyer aged 8 in 1911, was born in the Walthamstow registration district and baptised on 03-Sep-1902 at St Mary the Virgin Walthamstow. As Peter noted, this suggests that the Dyers had lived north of the river, but it could also mean that they had relatives in Walthamstow with whom Ann stayed temporarily during her confinement. Sure enough, they did have family there. Going back to the 1871 Census I found Ann Foster aged 1 with her parents Jonathan and Phoebe in Hackney. She had two sibs, Jonathan 9 and Elizabeth 7. I then found the marriage of Elizabeth Foster (father Jonathan) to Charles Henry Brown on 05-Apr-1885 at St John Walthamstow. Subsequent censuses show that they settled in Walthamstow and in both 1901 and 1911 this Brown family was residing at 151 Chelmsford Rd. It would be interesting to know if Amy Hilda was born at that address.

Meanwhile in 1901 the Gregory family were at 66 Beulah Rd and in 1911 they were at 692 Lea Bridge Rd. All these locations are within a kilometre of each other, as can be seen on an annotated map that I've shared at https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=13hFuuRoD9eCmemgjuVE-iZzAI3mJjSkL&usp=sharing.
This makes it entirely plausible that the Gregory family knew the family of Ann Dyer's sister Elizabeth Brown. Connection via church, school or employment are all possibilities. And that connection could have led to baby Doris's relocation, perhaps with a financial arrangement, saving embarrassment for the Gregorys. If there was a financial arrangement, that may have been something that the Dyers wanted to keep quiet, hence Doris was recorded as their biological child on the census.

On the other hand, there's Peter's innuendo that John Ernest Dyer could have been Doris's father. He was an artesian well engineer and a quick search shows that there were/are artesian wells in Walthamstow. Perhaps he was working there on site. As an entirely left field thought, could he have had the nickname "Wells"? He died in Essex, but he was not the John Ernest Dyer who died in 1957 as claimed on several Ancestry trees. Other records show that that man was an accountant. Rather, his death was in 1925 and this is in keeping with Ann Dyer being recorded as a widow at her remarriage in 1930.

Unfortunately none of this gets Peter any further regarding the possibility of his grandfather having fathered baby Doris. Nevertheless, it has been an interesting research exercise.

 

[peter]

it has been an interesting research exercise

It has indeed. And in the process I encountered another John E Dyer who has an intriguing entry on the 1901 Census - but i'll save that story for the next newsletter.