DNA understanding please

[sunflower]

I hope someone can help or at least give me pointers on a direction to follow to sort this problem.

I am trying to pinpoint a connection with a mystery family found as a result of dna tests. They are the closest matches we have received and we have no idea how we are related. This result means my sister I have a line of ancestors in my tree that we don't belong to. I have identified matches on all 8 lines on my mother's side and only a very weak match on one line of my father's side. It would help me a lot if I knew exactly what generation the connection relates to in order to research everyone more thoroughly and test out different scenarios.

I and my sister have a match of 577 and 608 cMs with someone who is two generations younger than us and there are many possibilities of relationship -1st cousin, 1st cousin once removed, half niece, half great niece. Ancestry has it as 1st - 2nd cousin.

Her 1st cousin is a match with us at 194 and 179 cMs considerably smaller, so possible relationship is first cousin once removed, 1st cousin twice removed, 1st cousin 3 times removed or 2nd cousin or 2nd cousin p once or twice removed. Why are our matches so different to these two first cousins when they share the same grandparents.

We have considerably more matches with this family than any other so it is quite significant and although I have tried to work it out, it just leaves me more and more confused. I know no-one can give a difinitive answer but any clue as to where I should start would help. Still waiting for 2 tests from other more distant family members so that might help but in the meantime, this hangs over me and I can't let it go.

Thank you for reading this.

 

[jorghes]

Have you checked the "Shared Matches" to see if there are any similarities between those for this set of matches and those you have already identified?

 

[Pauline]

I and my sister have a match of 577 and 608 cMs with someone who is two generations younger than us

Just wondering - if you are unsure of the relationship, how do you know this match is two generations younger than you and your sister?

Her 1st cousin is a match with us at 194 and 179 cMs considerably smaller

Is it from their respective trees that you are able to see what the relationship is between these two matches?

only a very weak match on one line of my father's side

Do you also have lots of "unknown" matches who might be on your father's side but you can't tell?

Sorry to answer your question with more questions but I'm trying to get my head around the situation you are describing.

 

[Tim]

Hi Sunflower, I think some more detail is required to help you further.
But, 1st cousins do NOT share the same grandparents. Only 1 set of the 2 are common.
So, can you determine the common grandparent set for your someone and her 1st cousin? These grandparents (and their ancestors) are the link into your tree.
As Pauline has said, I think the 2 generations is an assumption? Maybe due to ages? I have a 1st cousin who is 31 years older than me, her daughter who is 2 years younger than me is my 1st cousin 1x removed, yet we're the "same" generation.

I would put aside the relationships for now and focus on the facts. Relationships will be determined once you know the common ancestor.

I'm only guessing here, but could there be an NPE? A war baby? An adoption?

You don't mention the locations of the someone and her family. I would be looking for the locations of your grandparents and great grandparents and compare it with the locations of the common set of grandparents for the someone.

And lastly, a word of caution. Uncovering the DNA "truth" can bring light to shine on buried/forgotten events. Some people may have difficulty in accepting that people they knew from their childhood may not be actually related.

 

[sunflower]

Hi Jorghes,

Have you checked the "Shared Matches" to see if there are any similarities between those for this set of matches and those you have already identified?

I and my sister have 11 more share matches with this family and I have identified 7 of them to be true..

 

[sunflower]

Hi Pauline,

Just wondering - if you are unsure of the relationship, how do you know this match is two generations younger than you and your sister?

I know this because I know her grandfather and his family, but had no idea we were related.

Is it from their respective trees that you are able to see what the relationship is between these two matches?

I know they are 1st cousins as I know the family and have been in touch with both of them, but they do not seem very willing to proceed with working it out.

Do you also have lots of "unknown" matches who might be on your father's side but you can't tell?

There are many unknown matches and as so few of them have trees,it is impossible to work out which family line we connect on. The one that I found, I already had in my treee and we share the same 4 x great grandparents. His relative and mine were brother and sister born 1766 and 1777. I was really surprised to find this one as the cMs are only 16 over 1 segment, it was prior knowledge of the tree that made the connection. My sister does not match with this dna.

Sorry to answer your question with more questions but I'm trying to get my head around the situation you are describing.

No, that is great that others are taking the time to help me see the situation more clearly, I have got really bogged down in this and any opinion is helpful, even if it only makes me think outside thebox.

 

[sunflower]

Hi Sunflower, I think some more detail is required to help you further.
But, 1st cousins do NOT share the same grandparents. Only 1 set of the 2 are common.
So, can you determine the common grandparent set for your someone and her 1st cousin? These grandparents (and their ancestors) are the link into your tree.
As Pauline has said, I think the 2 generations is an assumption? Maybe due to ages? I have a 1st cousin who is 31 years older than me, her daughter who is 2 years younger than me is my 1st cousin 1x removed, yet we're the "same" generation.

I would put aside the relationships for now and focus on the facts. Relationships will be determined once you know the common ancestor.

I'm only guessing here, but could there be an NPE? A war baby? An adoption?

You don't mention the locations of the someone and her family. I would be looking for the locations of your grandparents and great grandparents and compare it with the locations of the common set of grandparents for the someone.

And lastly, a word of caution. Uncovering the DNA "truth" can bring light to shine on buried/forgotten events. Some people may have difficulty in accepting that people they knew from their childhood may not be actually related.

Hi Tim,

It is only the one set of grandparents that are concerned and that is on the male line and I actually know the family as we lived only a couple of hundred yards away from each other but never knew we were realated through the male side. I knew we were related by marriage on the female side as my maternal grandmother married the brother of my two matches grandmother. No issue from this marriage so no genetic relationship. You can imagine my surprise to find that we are quite closely genetically related to the male side of this family.

I understand there can be a great age difference between cousins as I have it in my own family which covers a 16 year span but as I know the family concerned, I know I am the same generation as the two cousins grandfather although he is 9 years older than me.

I think a baby born out of wedlock or with a different father to the husband of the woman is the most likely option that is why I am trying to pinpoint the generation to start an in depth search of possible suspects.

The location of my grandparents and great grandparents are not too far from the present day dna family, next county, but prior to that most were a long way away but there is one member of the other family that did move to the same town as us. He is my favourite guess at the moment but of course no proof.

I understand the implications of digging into the past and I know some people do get upset by discoveries that don't match their research but for me it is quite important as yesterday I followed up on another line in my family, one I had done a lot of work including transcribing records, only to find that on paper I match 3 x great grandparents with another person but we do not match dna on Ancestry or Gedmatch, so either she is not of that line or I am not. No other matches on that line have yet been found. Her relative was the only child of 7 taht was not baptised. so that may be significant but I think it was too long ago 1842 to be relevant.

I think when the results of two cousins on my father's side have been processed, it may be easier to see how to move forward.

 

[sunflower]

Can I please say thank you to all those that have taken the time to reply to me. It is very much appreciated

Elizabeth

 

[peter]

Elizabeth, are you using the coloured chart in my Masterclass to determine what the relationships might be? This also shows how wide the possible range of shared DNA can be - very wide.

 

[sunflower]

Elizabeth, are you using the coloured chart in my Masterclass to determine what the relationships might be? This also shows how wide the possible range of shared DNA can be - very wide.

Yes Peter, I am and that is how I came up with possible relationships but I just wondered if anyone with more knowledge than me (very limited) could throw any suggestions that might help me. As you can see some have responded and I will study their replies and try to work out where in my tree I have the possible connection. It's making me think anyway.

Something I can't work out though is why these two first cousins have such varying cMs to my sister and I which puts them into a different relationship. Any suggestions?

This is my first post on this forum and I am really pleased with the immediate responses I have had. Just confirms it is run on same lines as your excellent newsletters.

 

[peter]

Something I can't work out though is why these two first cousins have such varying cMs to my sister and I which puts them into a different relationship. Any suggestions?

Are you talking about someone you know to be a 1st cousin or someone who Ancestry suggest might be a 1st cousin? Ancestry don't take into account generational differences when putting forward suggestions.

Nevertheless, as you can see from the chart in the Masterclass, the DNA shared between 1st cousins twice removed has been known to range from as little as 43cM to as much as 531cM.

 

[Tim]

I think when the results of two cousins on my father's side have been processed, it may be easier to see how to move forward.

I think testing your 2nd cousins and testing the other persons 2nd cousins could be more telling.

 

[sunflower]

Are you talking about someone you know to be a 1st cousin or someone who Ancestry suggest might be a 1st cousin? Ancestry don't take into account generational differences when putting forward suggestions.

Nevertheless, as you can see from the chart in the Masterclass, the DNA shared between 1st cousins twice removed has been known to range from as little as 43cM to as much as 531cM.

I take the two matches to be first cousins as one of each of their parents are brother and sister. Ancestry puts the relationship to me and my sister as 1st-2nd cousin for the higher cM match and 3rd-4th cousin for the other. I don't know how they match up with each other as Ancestry does not give their details against each other. They must be a cousin twice removed I would think.

I am pretty sure that the connection does not cover my father as he is so like my grandfather but it could be my great grandmother as she was illegitimate but I cannot link the locations at the present time.

I think I will have to wait as Tims says and see what my 1st cousin's test throws up as well as another much more distant cousin's test. I' m just impatient to know the answer.

Thanks for your input, it does help to question everything and learn something in the process.
Elizabeth

 

[sunflower]

I think testing your 2nd cousins and testing the other persons 2nd cousins could be more telling.

I don't have many cousins alive of any generation, only two on my father's side and one of those has disappeared, the other is testing.

I won't be able to get the matches 2nd cousins to test as they are not interested any longer. I wonder actually, it they know the connection and want to cover it up, so are not cooperating. I will wait for the other tests on my side of the family and hope something comes of it. In the meantime I will carry on analysing any matches from Ancestry and adding them to my spreadsheet.

Thanks for your help Tim.

Your photo reminds me so much of one of my late son, must be the haircut.

 

[peter]

I take the two matches to be first cousins as one of each of their parents are brother and sister. Ancestry puts the relationship to me and my sister as 1st-2nd cousin for the higher cM match and 3rd-4th cousin for the other.

So when you said they were 1st cousins, you meant they were 1st cousins to each other? (It's very easy to get confused when discussing relationships, especially where DNA is involved - it's a good idea to refer to people by names or initials.)

I assume you have ruled out the possibility that the brother and sister (ie the parents) were half-siblings?

I don't know how they match up with each other as Ancestry does not give their details against each other. They must be a cousin twice removed I would think.

When you say 1st cousin twice removed, you mean to you? I think 1st cousin once removed is more likely given the amount of DNA that you and your sister share with them - in this case it all makes perfect sense, since the chart gives a range of 141cM-851cM for this relationship.

 

[sunflower]

So when you said they were 1st cousins, you meant they were 1st cousins to each other?

Yes I did mean that as I thought that the father of one and the mother of the other were brother and sister. However, your next comment has me wondering, were they half siblings. If that is the case then 1st cousin once removed to me fits, so would that make me a half great aunt or even a great great aunt.
I wonder if that is why the rest of the family are so reticent to take a dna test.

It might also explain an exercise I did this evening. LBD 577 cMs to me and 608 to my sister share 11 matches including her cousin but when I do the same with the other (TH) my sister and I only match LBD and one other KG who does not match with any of the other 11. I have asked TH how many cMs he shares with LBD but I've never had an answer.

I have researched KG's family and have made contact with him sending all I had found and although he seemed keen, has not responded further. It could be that TH and KG match with my sister and I through a completely different line and that TH and LBD match on another line.
KG test matches with TH, my sister and I and two others of 29cMs.

I think I am on to a loser here, but I would love to know exactly who my ancestors were as I obviously have a wrong line in my tree somewhere.