How do I find Scottish ancestors with little starting information?

[Liberty]

I am looking for guidance on finding out more about my Great grandfather and his forebears.
Basically all I KNOW is that the man existed, and that he was called Robert Campbell. The family story is that he came to South Shields (in England) as a boy, with the intention of going to sea, and that he then had no parents or siblings. He said he was born about 1856 (but history is full of boys lying about their age, particulalalry to get work, so I can't be sure of that) and when he married, he said his father's name was Robert. He also asked his daughter in law (my grandmother) to name her unborn baby Jessie if it was a girl, and I have found a christening record for a child of his (who died in infancy) who had the middle name Jessie. I THINK this may have been his mother's name, and there was also some tradition that his mother came from Manchester, but I would rate both of these 'facts' as doubtful. I am slightly surer that he had been living in Queen's Park in Glasgow. That is the sum total. I may add that he did indeed become a sailor, and seems to have specialised in being away from home on census night!

Any ideas welcomed

 

[Liberty]

I should have said, that I followed up a 'promising' trail:
In 1861 a Robert Campbell b Glasgow 1858 and a Jessie b Glasgow 1860 were both grandchildren in a household in Gibson Street, St James, Glasgow / Calton. The name of the head was Wright - with no Christian name - and there was a married daughter called Campbell - again no Christian name. It is tempting to see a link here, but I don't see how to progress

 

[Alexander Bisset]

Hmm Campbell is a very common name that makes it harder. I guess the first thing to do is to find him on the 1861 census. From your description it sounds like you have no records that give his age anywhere. eg: no census at all. Is it likely he moved to South Shields prior to the 1861 census? ie: is it likely he is on Scotland Census?

Doing an Ancestry search I found a Robert Campbell and Janet (aka Jessie) Campbell with a son Robert in Glasgow that suggested a link to a South Shields Mariner certificate. Looking at the mariner's certificate it shows him at 68 Catherine Street, South Shields - could this be right?

If so it gives his date of birth of 11th Dec 1855 which is PURE SOLID GOLD when it comes to Scottish births. 1855 is the first year of statutory registration in Scotland and it contains an AMAZING amount of information far far more than any other year.

The mariners certificate for 1883 confirms 11th Dec 1855 and gives his address as 22 Thomas Street, South Shields.

If you can confirm this is likely to be him I can assist further, I've seen 10 Robert Campbells born in 1855. Now if you were unlucky and had to look at all the certificates this would cost you 1 credit to do the search and 10x5 credits to view the images. A total of 51 credits or £12.20.

This would give you an 1855 certificate which would details of his parents and their marriage date as well as various other details. Also if this is the family then his mother Jessie is widowed on the 1871 census with Robert still at home in Glasgow. That means his father and mother both die in statutory registration so for an extra 12 credits you will get their death certificates online which will give you their parents ie: all 4 of Robert's grandparents.

 

[Liberty]

I'm a little bit confused as what it is you've found. And yes, GGF evaded every English census up to and including the 1911 one - so far the chief proof that he ever existed is the existence of descendants(!)

"a Robert Campbell and Janet (aka Jessie) Campbell with a son Robert in Glasgow " - was this is 1861? If so, so far, so good.
The family tradition is quite clear that my GGF came to South Shields soon after being orphaned (whether through the simultaneous death of both parents or of a second, single parent, I have no idea). He was an apprentice on a sailing vessel in 1871, and the story is that he worked in S Shields for a short while as a grocer's errand boy before he could get to sea, so I have assumed his move south was 1871 (or possibly 1870) but not earlier. I.e. he 'ought' be in the 1861 census in Scotland with one or both parents.

"[this] suggested a link to a South Shields Mariner certificate. " I don't suppose a census entry is directly linked to a mariner's certificate, so I guess this is a connection via a 'member tree' - is this the case?
It's not clear from your posting what date this certificate is, and the address of 68 Catherine Street, South Shields doesn't actually mean anything to me, but Catherine Street is in Westoe, South Shields which is certainly the right area of town for my family.

"The mariners certificate for 1883 confirms 11th Dec 1855 and gives his address as 22 Thomas Street, South Shields."

Alexander, this is absolutely the purest of pure gold, I assure you. The family story, again, was that when he went to sea, the mate of his first ship took him under his wing, and my GGF ended up marrying his daughter (my GGM). Well, in the 1881 census, my GGM Hannah (with her age enhanced by 10 years, alas) is with her parents and sister at 22 Thomas Street, Westoe, South Shields. This would suggest that GGF Robert Campbell either lodged there, or at least used it as an accommodation address for paperwork purposes. In 1881 he was First Officer on a barque, though I confess I don't know how certificates and rank on board ship fit together, but it all looks good.

If you think you can tie this address, the mariner's certificate and the boy in Glasgow together, then you indeed have my GGF. It suggests that his mother died in 1871, after the census, and Robert did indeed make quick work of getting to S Shields and then to sea. Which in turn, of course, suggests that family stories and traditions, though best treated with caution, may sometimes be true.

It will be great to track back from this point. I can scarcely belive that after being so baffled, I might find out all 4 of Robert's grandparents. And what a great way to demonstrate the help one forum member can give another. Thank you so much!

 

[Alexander Bisset]

"[this] suggested a link to a South Shields Mariner certificate. " I don't suppose a census entry is directly linked to a mariner's certificate, so I guess this is a connection via a 'member tree' - is this the case?

No when you do a search on Ancestry and view a record they make "suggestions" to other related records, these are to other collections, often other census but also to more obscure record collections such as the mariner's collection. So what I did was an 1861 Ancestry Scottish census search for Robert. I found a likely record as the names, dates and places matched. This search then prompted a "Mariner's certificate" link on the right hand menu. I viewed this and saw it was for a Robert Campbell born 1855 Glasgow and living in South Shields.

The images are:

Census 1861

1878 Mariner's Certificates

1880 Mariner's Certificates

1906 Mariner's Certificates

 

[Alexander Bisset]

I could only do 10 images per post. The other images are :


More 1880 Mariner's certificates

Then the matching address ones of 1883.


Note some of these are re-issues as there are even tales of him losing the papers and believing them stolen.

 

[Alexander Bisset]

Remaining 1883 images.

So as you can see a massive amount of corroborating evidence that this is the same person. The core proof now is checking Scotland's People and finding his death from the 10 entries of Robert Campbell births in 1855. If this confirms his birth as 11th Dec 1855 and his parents as Robert & Jessie Campbell you have definitely found him.

One last image. I believe this is the 1871 census with Jessie as head of household, you will note the same list of children plus 2, the youngest aged 6 suggests Robert the father dies between 1864 and 1871 so a relatively narrow death range.

 

[Liberty]

So as you can see a massive amount of corroborating evidence that this is the same person. The core proof now is checking Scotland's People and finding his death from the 10 entries of Robert Campbell births in 1855. If this confirms his birth as 11th Dec 1855 and his parents as Robert & Jessie Campbell you have definitely found him.

View attachment 49

Another theory bites the dust. My brother has looked and can't even find a Robert Campbell registered with that date of birth. Also, I found a christening record for the younger brother John in the 1861 family (2 June1856). This makes it implausible (impossible?) that their Robert was born 6 months before John's christening, so doesn't fit with the dob on my GGF's mariner's records.

Back to the theory that he lied about his age - hope he didn't lie about his name as well.

 

[Alexander Bisset]

From the 1861 and 1871 census it would appear that his sister Jessie is the same age I was wondering if they are twins. Perhaps searching for Jessie might find Robert, especially if he was maybe recorded at birth with a different name or transcribed wrongly so it doesn't appear in the index.

Note a christening record 6 months after a birth doesn't make it impossible. Christenings are often delayed sometimes by months or years after a birth. I do however wonder if he was aged 6 on the 1861 census then that would make a birth of 1854 not 1855. Have you had a look at the OPR births on Scotland's people for 1854?

 

[Liberty]

Note a christening record 6 months after a birth doesn't make it impossible. Christenings are often delayed sometimes by months or years after a birth. I do however wonder if he was aged 6 on the 1861 census then that would make a birth of 1854 not 1855. Have you had a look at the OPR births on Scotland's people for 1854?

Agreed Robert could be christened 6 months after his birth, but in this case JOHN was christened 6 months after Robert's supposed birth, which is altogether trickier, since the census does show him as younger.

And yes, he shouldn't be down as aged 6 if he was only born mid-December 1855. However, remember Alexander, that my interest in this is to find my GGF who said he was born 1856, rather than pin down the Robert of his family. He also said he was an orphan and had no (surviving) siblings, whereas mother Janet, sister Jessie and brother Matthew were around in 1881, so we are getting to a situation where only the name is the same!

My inclination is to follow up the record I cited earlier - "In 1861 a Robert Campbell b Glasgow 1858 and a Jessie b Glasgow 1860 were both grandchildren in a household in Gibson Street, St James,Glasgow / Calton. The name of the head was Wright - with no Christian name - and there was a married daughter called Campbell - again no Christian name." I could understand a 13-year old claiming to be 16 (in 1871) in order to join a ship, and could believe that Mother Campbell and sister Jessie had died in the interim.

 

[Alexander Bisset]

The core information you now have you didn't have before is the Mariner's certificates, the first certificate he signed was in 1878 when he says he is born on 11th Dec 1855. He would have been 22 at the time of signing that certificate, he then proceeds to give exactly the same date in 1880, 1883 and 1906. I'd be tempted to say that is what he knew as his birth date. Note he is first an apprentice on a ship in October 1871 when he would be 15 almost 16, so yes he WAS young when he started out.

However he'd have to have remarkable memory to remember a lie all his life to consistently say he is born on 11th Dec 1855. Now with your other records you have you did previously say he is born about 1856. a December 1855 birth entirely fits with this about 1856 date.

Perhaps that 1861 census is wrong. However I very firmly believe that the Dec 1855 date is right. The Mariner's certificates covering a 28 year period which he had to carry with him at all times and were updated by every captain of every ship he sailed on suggest that the information on them is going to be trustworthy. So I'd follow their leads. It gives dates for instance of where he was (what ship he was on for various census nights). It might be possible to track down that line? It gives various previous addresses. Its worth checking the census for those addresses on census nights 1871 (when he is first in South Shields) right through to 1911 (5 years after the last mariner's certificate). You never know that might throw up a link.

However I'd agree that the 1861 census I found may not be right at this stage, so park that. I'd concentrate in the first instance on the leads to the census from the Mariner's certificates. As well as checking for Glasgow births/christenings on 11th Dec 1855.

 

[Liberty]

I THINK this just means he stuck with the same dob. The obvious answer(?), if this is wrong, is that he stuck with correct day/month and amended the year.
I will check out the addresses, but I have located my GGM every census year, and GGF was never with her. (My grandma's lament about marriage to my GF, I may say)
I think all we have established is that in his later, English-based life, he told a consistent story

 

[Liberty]

Just in case anyone has been following this...
We 'think' we have found GGF. The working hypothesis is that he was born illegitimately in July 1856, and his mother later married. This woman, it turns out, died 11 December 1871, which may have given GGF his day and month of birth when pretending to be slightly older than he was. We have seen a couple of records relating to his apprenticeship, so at least the trail is clear from October 1871.
The one thing that would patch together the possible early life in Glasgow with adult life in South Shields seems to be a possible school record held at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. Does anyone on this forum visit the place? If willing to help me out with research please let me know......

 

[Alexander Bisset]

It would certainly be wonderful to fit this together if you do get the school records.