Alice Jones Widow married Edmund BRADSHAW

[Lynne99]

Hi All, I hope you are well. I really need some help finding the identity or maiden name of my 3x great grandmother. Her husband is Edmund BRADSHAW, born about 1755 most probably Liverpool.. His second marriage was in 1812 at St Nicholas Church , Liverpool. This was by licence to Alice JONES , widow. My direct relative , Esther BRADSHAW b 1819 Liverpool was the only child of this marriage that I can find.
I cannot find Alice Jones' Maiden name. I have done a DNA test with Ancestry, but cannot make any links without her maiden name. She may have had children in her previous marriage. I have a copy of the licence but this does not help me. I think she was born about 1777, from the age given at her death in 1841. Edmund was a hatter.
Thanks in anticipation of your help
Lynne

 

[peter]

Jones is a Welsh surname and Liverpool isn't far from Wales. There are likely to be hundreds of women called Alice who married a man called Jones, so the challenge will be to figure out which one she was - and that's where DNA will come in useful.

 

[Lynne99]

That is why I am in such a pickle... Need to find Alice ?? whose husband ? Jones died c 1812 or just before. There was a long shot that someone on your site might have this marriage on their tree. Fingers crossed hey.

 

[peter]

That is why I am in such a pickle... Need to find Alice ?? whose husband ? Jones died c 1812 or just before. There was a long shot that someone on your site might have this marriage on their tree. Fingers crossed hey.

Everyone who wants help with a 'brick wall' should start by following the advice in Janet Few's blog post, which I mentioned in my newsletter recently - you'll find it here.

 

[Lynne99]

Thanks Peter. The only census she is on is 1841. Rounded age given as 60. Born in Lancashire. Living with her son John Mitchell (30) and his wife (her daughter) Esther (22) Address South Hill, Dingle , Toxteth park.
Piece: 567
Book: 10A
Folio: 29
Page Number: 11

She died later that year buried 24 Oct 1841, Walton on the Hill near Liverpool. Aged 66. The only other mention I have of her is in her husband's Edmund Bradshaw's will. Written 1829. Left all belongings to her. He also mentioned his daughter Esther Ellen and a John Earnshaw of Liverpool , Gentleman, who he is in debt to for £130.
Thanks

 

[peter]

Thanks, Lynne. Is the age at death shown in the burial register the same as on the death certificate (this isn't always the case)? If she really was 66 then she must have been born in 1774-75 and not in 1777 as you indicated previously. (Presumably you meant to say that John Mitchell was her son-in-law, not her son.)

Now you've told us what you've found, the next step is to tell us where you've looked so far (that's another part of the blog post).

 

[Lynne99]

Certificate says 64 at death. I have been looking for her for 10 years and can't remember all that I have tried. I did look at marriages of Jones marrying Alice in Liverpool around 1795 to 1810 and tried to check on if husband died but got no where. I appreciate that you are trying to help, but I feel I have included all the info I have. I also have found that relatives of the deceased often did not know the age of their parents. Looking for a baptism is no good without a surname. They do say many hands make light work or something like that.

 

[peter]

Certificate says 64 at death. I have been looking for her for 10 years and can't remember all that I have tried. I did look at marriages of Jones marrying Alice in Liverpool around 1795 to 1810 and tried to check on if husband died but got no where. I appreciate that you are trying to help, but I feel I have included all the info I have. I also have found that relatives of the deceased often did not know the age of their parents. Looking for a baptism is no good without a surname. They do say many hands make light work or something like that.

If you can't answer the questions in Dr Few's blog then perhaps you need to approach your research differently?

According to the 1841 Census your ancestor was born in Lancashire. Create a spreadsheet with all the marriages of an Alice to a Jones in Lancashire between (say) 1791 to 1811 and figure out which of them were, or might have been, widowed prior to 1812.

Also check which surnames do and don't appear in the trees of your DNA matches.

 

[Stuart]

It looks as if Alice's marriage record in 1812, and a lot of the others, are originals and so will have "Alice" in her handwriting. Did you try using that? It means you can take any where Alice made her mark off the list, and also any where the writing looks quite different. That should reduce the number of candidates, though of course it's no help if (as is likely) the one you want isn't in the list to start with or is not an original.

 

[Lynne99]

Thanks both. 2 brilliant ideas there. I will start straight away.

 

[Pauline]

She may have had children in her previous marriage.

How much have you followed up this possibility? I appreciate that searching for Jones children with a mother named Alice may produce a lot of results, but since you know roughly when Alice was born, you have an approximate time frame during which she could have had children.

Also, if she had small children when her previous (not necessarily her first) husband died, then she may have married again quite quickly, needing support for herself and her children. This could narrow down the possible Mr Jones burials to be investigated.

 

[peter]

It's very unlikely that she was more than 30 years old at her first marriage. However, as Pauline says, we can't be sure that there weren't other husbands before Jones. And since there was no family planning in those days it's extremely likely that she had some small children when Jones died - however it's also likely that she had some older children who could help with the child care. She may also have had help from her mother or other relatives - my 4G grandmother's children were 8, 7, 4 and 1 when their father died but she didn't remarry until 5 years later.

Fortunately there aren't that many Alices who married a Jones in Lancashire during the relevant period.

I wouldn't rely too much on signatures, or on whether someone signed or made their mark; for example, my great-great grandmother signed when she married, but made her mark when registering the births of her children.

Similarly, my great-great-great grandfather married twice, 10 years apart, but the two signatures are sufficiently different that I needed other evidence to convince myself that it was the same man:



Bear in mind that if Alice did sign her name she will have signed two different surnames, so looking for similarities will be that much harder.

 

[Pauline]

Another avenue to investigate is wills and admons, possibly with the aid of the Death Duty registers which are still free to view on the TNA website. Mr Jones may have left a will, or if Edmund or Alice left wills, these may mention children from a previous marriage. Or if Alice was granted administration for her late husband, then the Death Duty registers may hold clues.

 

[peter]

A reminder that the first step is to put the spreadsheet together - then you'll have somewhere to record the information you find from other sources.

 

[Pauline]

if Edmund or Alice left wills, these may mention children from a previous marriage

Sorry, I missed your mention above that you have already looked at Edmund's will.

 

[Lynne99]

A quick up date.
I have made a spread sheet with 3 tabs. Tab 1 ; lists all the marriages between Jones and Alice 1791 to 1812, with all the info as well. Only 18
Tab 2 lists deaths of Jones between these dates. 56
Tab 3 lists children to Jones and Alice between 1791 and 1813, just in case she was pregnant when she married Edmund. 37 including multiples from the same parents.
I am good at spread sheets, but very slow at typing. I have used transcripts from the Lancashire on line parish clerk (My favourite site for early records, shame other counties are not as good.). Usually gives addresses as well so I can link with deaths. Not done yet.
I have discounted those that continued to have children after 1813. This of course leaves lots of records that I must be missing. I have Ancestry, but this only gave me 5 more marriages and only 1 more birth , which did not give an address or occupation.
Now all I have to do, is to see if any are likely.
I cannot find a will for Alice Bradshaw died October 1841 Liverpool (Dingle) I do not know how to look on TNA. I have never succeeded in finding anything there. His will says everything after his debts shall go to his wife for her natural life and then to Esther Ellen, or if she died first, to his Grandchildren.

Alice was his 2nd wife and he was survived by at least 3 of his children from the first marriage and at least 12 grandchildren. He was also survived by Esther Ellen who was 9 when he died.

I will carry on with the records I have and hope I can find something.
Thanks for your help

 

[peter]

I do not know how to look on TNA. I have never succeeded in finding anything there

Have you read the relevant research guide(s) on the TNA site? That's always the place to start.

 

[Pauline]

His will says everything after his debts shall go to his wife for her natural life and then to Esther Ellen, or if she died first, to his Grandchildren.

In this case, since she had only a life interest in her husband's assets, unless she had her own money from elsewhere, she would be unlikely to leave a will. The money would have passed automatically to Esther Ellen on Alice's death without need for a will or admon.

 

[Lynne99]

No not looked yet at TNA
One idea is Thomas Jones married Alice Woods 16 Sep 1805. at St Mary's, Walton. He died 9th Oct 1812 from drowning. I haven't found any children

 

[Lynne99]

Thanks Pauline, from the wording in the will, that is what I understood as well. There were 4 A3 pages of will, a mammoth read.