Differencies between Scottish and English/Welsh Records

[Alexander Bisset]

Surely we should be focusing on the important issues - making sure that the census continues, and getting the law changed so that we can access the historic England & Wales BMD registers online?

It is interesting to me as a family historian with almost uniquely Scottish records that those with English records are so fixated on the census. Now don't get me wrong I can understand fully why that is when you don't have any online records for BMDs and are forced to rely on indexes and very expensive certificates. A census to my Scottish research is important but far less so that a marriage or death certificate (births almost always simply confirm what you already know). Marriage certificates are the most valuable as they give the names of all four parents including the mothers maiden names, and death certificate gives father and mothers names of the deceased (where known). The census is a lot less important as it simply confirms family groups.

So I'd echo Peter's call for more focus on getting the bread and butter data of actual BMD registers online. Whilst you'll never have the richness of data that was collected for the Scottish records, mainly because of the English tradition of the wife losing all her former identity on marriage, you would at least have original source documents to go on without having to purchase an expensive certificate.

For the record the difference in Scotland is that you can view/print/save a scan of a certificate for £1.20 to use as you wish for your own research. However you can still get an official printed certificate as per the English ones for £8 the difference is the former has no legal standing the latter is acceptable proof in a court of law.

 

[Heather]

A census to my Scottish research is important but far less so that a marriage or death certificate (births almost always simply confirm what you already know). Marriage certificates are the most valuable as they give the names of all four parents including the mothers maiden names, and death certificate gives father and mothers names of the deceased (where known).

I take it that you are speaking of Scottish certificates here Alexander, as English birth certificates generally give the place/address where born, the mother's maiden name, the father's name and occupation and the name and address of the informant. English marriage certificates do not give all four parents names, only the father's names and occupations, plus the name, age, condition, residence and occupation of the bride and groom. Death certificates are often overlooked by researchers, but I find them fascinating as they give the age at death the cause of death and who was the informant, which sometimes is a member of the family. So I am surprised to see that Scottish and English certificates carry very different details. I do rely on census records and find it really interesting to follow a family through the census years, in fact I find this the most interesting part of my research. The details that one can find on a census record to me is invaluable, so I am sorry but I have to disagree with you on that point. In Australia the census records were never kept and it is only recently that one is given the option to have your details saved, so anyone trying to research their family members who have come to this country, find it very hard to trace what happened to them, apart from birth, marriage and death certificates etc.

 

[SuzanneD]

I think you've hit on the main difference Alexander - especially for marriages and deaths, the Scottish certificates are much more informative than English ones. I don't think I've ever made a real breakthrough from an English death certificate. Scottish certificates, on the other hand, usually give pretty unequivocal verification that you have the right person, given the number of generations and level of detail recorded. (Luckily, New Zealand certificates seem to have been modelled on the Scottish ones and the death certificates in particular can be a treasure trove - if the informant knows what they're talking about).

I do however find the Scottish censuses useful for getting a sense of family status (do they have servants? do the occupations match what's on the certificates?) and tracking collateral branches - it seems quite common for stray nieces, nephews and grandchildren to be part of the family, which makes it a bit cheaper to confirm the collateral lines in the family without paying to get certificates for sibling lines. Sorry, I seem to be confirming some unfortunate stereotypes about part of my ethnic heritage!

 

[Liberty]

I do however find the Scottish censuses useful for getting a sense of family status (do they have servants? do the occupations match what's on the certificates?) and tracking collateral branches - it seems quite common for stray nieces, nephews and grandchildren to be part of the family, which makes it a bit cheaper to confirm the collateral lines in the family without paying to get certificates for sibling lines. Sorry, I seem to be confirming some unfortunate stereotypes about part of my ethnic heritage!

I agree with Suzanne 100% (including the cost element AND ethnic heritage). Perhaps it depends on what you are trying to find out. If you are moving back in time, I am sure that an informative B/M/D certificate is unequalled.
However, I think I have tracked my direct ancestry back in time to the 1841 census (certainly before registration), and am now coming forward in time with collateral lines. Before you can even think of looking at a birth/marriage certificate you have to know who you are looking for, and censuses will provide names of children etc. And if your family has a common name, how would you set about finding out who the daughters married? As Suzanne says, a visiting niece or grandson can give a vital clue.

As a side note, if anyone can think of a realistic way of identifying 3 children born to my GGM, dead before the 1911 census, I am interested to know. I am not rushing to pay for all birth certificates of children named Campbell, born in South Shields during her childbearing years - nor death certificates of Campbells dying there under the age of ten. Too many, too expensive, too depressing!

 

[Carla]

For the record the difference in Scotland is that you can view/print/save a scan of a certificate for £1.20 to use as you wish for your own research. However you can still get an official printed certificate as per the English ones for £8 the difference is the former has no legal standing the latter is acceptable proof in a court of law.

Oh how I wish this happened with the English records!

 

[Tim]

Oh how I wish this happened with the English records!

And Welsh Carla, don't forget the Welsh!

 

[Alexander Bisset]

I take it that you are speaking of Scottish certificates here Alexander, as English birth certificates generally give the place/address where born, the mother's maiden name, the father's name and occupation and the name and address of the informant.

Yes a Scottish birth certificate gives just name of child, date, time and place of birth, fathers name and occupation mothers name including maiden name (regardless of marital status) whether the parents were married and the date of the marriage if after 1861. So fairly basic information which usually just confirms what you already know.

English marriage certificates do not give all four parents names, only the father's names and occupations, plus the name, age, condition, residence and occupation of the bride and groom.

Scottish marriage certificates are in my opinion the most useful as they give the grooms name, occupation and residence at the time of marriage the brides name, occupation and residence at time of marriage. The status of bride and groom (eg: batchelor, spinster, widow etc), the ages of bride and groom, the names of both fathers with occupation and both mother's full name including maiden name and include the status of the parents (eg: notes deceased or alive at time of marriage). This can be useful for narrowing death ranges. It also records the witnesses and place, date and time of marriage as well as the denomination of the ceremony.

 

[Alexander Bisset]

Oh how I wish this happened with the English records!

This is kinda Peter's point we should be campaigning for the availability of the English records to catch up with the Scottish ones, rather than worrying about breaking promises made 92 years ago about the secrecy of the census.

 

[Carla]

And Welsh Carla, don't forget the Welsh!

ooops indeed Tim

 

[SuzanneD]

It seems quite common for stray nieces, nephews and grandchildren to be part of the family, which makes it a bit cheaper to confirm the collateral lines in the family without paying to get certificates for sibling lines. Sorry, I seem to be confirming some unfortunate stereotypes about part of my ethnic heritage!

Oops - before I give you all the impression that I'm a sloppy researcher as well as being tight, I should say I often use the information from the Scottish census (alongside FamilySearch) to narrow down my search choices for these collateral marriages: the Scotlands People BMD site has very powerful search facilities so if you have identified a likely marriage from other records, you can narrow down the search and lessen the risk of paying your £1.20 only to see the wrong record.