Marriage entry twice

[sunflower]

I have found a marriage of one of my ancestors entered twice - same woman, same district.

The first one for Robert Holloard to Grace Blake was 4th qtr 1854 - vol 5b - page 593 - Stoke Damerel and the second was 3rd qtr 1856 - vol 5b - page 654 - Stoke Damerel.

He was a Royal Marine and I have only found him on the 1861 census with Grace and no further entry for him but I may have found a Grace Hollard (correct spelling) in 1912 at Stoke on Trent.

Is there a plausible reason for this., does anyone know?

Sorry. Forgot to add that Grace remarried in 1862 to John Nowell, so she is documented but I am still looking for Robert after 1861. He was born 1825 in Charlton Mackrell, Somerset to George and Mary Hollard.

 

[Susan48]

There are several reasons why a couple marries more than once, and the best explanation for these can be found in Rebecca Probert's books Marriage Law for Genealogists and Divorced, Bigamist, Bereaved?
My paternal grandmother married her second husband twice, in 1923 and then again in 1932. Although she was free to remarry as my grandfather had died in 1920, her second husband was still married to his first wife in 1923. I assume he was free to marry in 1932, but the evidence is unclear.

 

[sunflower]

Thanks for your reply.
I have just found the church record for the marriage of Grace in 1862 and it states she was a widow, so that is a new bit of info which may help me to find Robert. Although I think she was a spinster at the time of her marriage to Robert, I cannot find the church record that might tell me. She gave her name as Blake and her father was also Blake so nothing to imply that she was not single. Perhaps Robert was already married, something else to investigate.

I do not have the book you refer to so I cannot look up the possible reasons for a double entry.

 

[Pauline]

One reason I’ve come across for a second marriage is what Rebecca Probert terms a “technical defect”. That is an error in the information given, or perhaps the banns called incorrectly, which went unnoticed at the time and which might have made the marriage invalid. So the couple went through a second ceremony, usually at the Register Office, to ensure they were legally married.

I guess the only way to find out for sure would be to look at copies of both marriages which, since you can’t find either in an online register, might mean buying both certificates.

 

[sunflower]

I do now have the church records for the 2nd marriage of Grace where it states she was a widow. This would normally indicate that her husband had died but I cannot find anything that would fit in that short time period, March 1861 to May 1862. I did find an entry for the death of Robert HOLL which I thought looked hopeful but on further investigation it turned out to be HOLE and he was under 1 year old.

Maybe Robert died abroad while serving as a Royal Marine but I have found nothing on a death or even his naval details. A dead end at the moment, I think.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Pauline]

A dead end at the moment, I think.

Happens to all our ancestors eventually.

I guess here it depends what you are trying to find out - what happened to Robert, or why he and Grace married twice. The latter could reveal something interesting, or if you are unlucky, nothing useful at all.

 

[sunflower]

Both really. It was the wherabouts of Robert initially until I found his marriages, then I hoped to find out more through that source.

My 2 x great grandfather Robert Hollard was born in 1814 in Kingsdon and the Robert I am trying to tidy up on was born 1825 Charlton Mackrell. My concern is that there is a death for Robert Hollard in Kingsdon in January 1901 which until now I had attributed to Robert born 1814 but the age given at death was 78 which equates to a birth date of 1821/22 which is nearer the age of the Robert born 1825. There is another burial in 1900 for a Robert Hollard but that one has been sorted correctly as the age was correct for the date of birth of a younger Robert.

I guess this will end up on the back burner unless I fork out for the death cert of Robert for 1901.

 

[Helen7]

I've found two marriages of my 5x great-grandparents Thomas Clough and Dolly Williamson in two different parishes six weeks apart. The first is in Crich, Derbyshire on 12 January 1752 and the other is in Ashbourne, Derbyshire on 24 February 1752. The latter is 'By Licence'. Neither bride nor groom were from either Crich or Ashbourne, as they were both from Wirksworth (as stated in both marriage records). Wirksworth is between the two, about 5 miles from Crich and 9 miles from Ashbourne. I have no idea why they should have married twice in these two different parishes, and wonder why they weren't married in their home town of Wirksworth.

I'd be interested if anyone can suggest any reasons for this second marriage. Could it have been a "technical defect" as suggested earlier by Pauline?

 

[Stuart]

I've found two marriages of my 5x great-grandparents Thomas
I'd be interested if anyone can suggest any reasons for this second marriage. Could it have been a "technical defect" as suggested earlier by Pauline?

Given it was early 1752, was there a problem with these new-fangled dates?

 

[sunflower]

It seems that your two marriages are more complicated than mine.
Could it be something to do with the calling of banns in two parishes or maybe sometimes the wrong parish is attributed to another parish by the transcriber. I've noticed this a few times on Family Search.

 

[Helen7]

Given it was early 1752, was there a problem with these new-fangled dates?

I don't think so. The entries for January 1752 in the Crich register (including my ancestors' marriage on 12th Jan) are headed '1752. The year commencing on the first of January pursuant to an Act of Parliament'. The Ashbourne register has entries divided by month, and the entries headed December 1751 are followed by the entries headed January 1752, then February (including my ancestors' marriage on 24th).

 

[Helen7]

It seems that your two marriages are more complicated than mine.
Could it be something to do with the calling of banns in two parishes

I suppose it could have been Banns-related, though the second marriage was by Licence. Having said that, I notice all the February 1752 marriages in Ashbourne (6 of them, all 22-24 Feb) are marked 'By Lic" whereas none of those in other months are. Seems odd.

or maybe sometimes the wrong parish is attributed to another parish by the transcriber. I've noticed this a few times on Family Search.

I'm not going on transcriptions, I'm looking at the images from the original registers - one from Crich and one from Ashbourne, clearly labelled.

 

[Helen7]

I'm now wondering if the reason my ancestors didn't marry in their parish of Wirksworth was because the bride was under 21 (she was 19) and would have needed parental consent. But that doesn't account for the two marriages. In fact, according to Rebecca Probert's book: "Until March 24th 1754, once the marriage of a minor had taken place, whether by banns or by licence, it could not be found to be invalid because of a lack of parental consent, or even if parental disapproval had been voiced."

 

[Pauline]

A “technical defect” of some sort does seem like the most likely explanation, though what sort might for ever remain a mystery. Despite it not making the marriage void, the bride being under age seems an unlikely reason anyway since the licence makes no reference to her being a minor, which you would expect it to if that was why they thought a remedial marriage necessary. It may be because neither party was resident in the parish where they married, and while that shouldn’t have made the marriage void either, perhaps someone suggested to the couple that it might.

 

[Stuart]

The licence was dated 11th January, and both lived in Wirksworth, so both marriages must have been by licence. So I guess they came to believe that the first one was in some way not in accord with the licence conditions.

The most likely one I can find (in various confusing accounts of the law before 1754) is the requirement for one of the parties to reside in a parish for four weeks before marrying there. If they found that out a few days after the first marriage, and preferred to not go back to Crich, that makes some sense.

Of course they were still ignoring another of the general conditions, assuming Dolly was indeed under 21.

 

[Pauline]

The licence was dated 11th January

I omitted to look at the date! However, the licence did say they could marry in Crich, Wirksworth or Ashbourne, so where they living in the weeks prior to the marriage wouldn’t have been relevant.

 

[Helen7]

the licence did say they could marry in Crich, Wirksworth or Ashbourne,

It looks to me that the licence says they could marry in Crich, Matlock or Ashbourne (not Wirksworth), but says they are both from Wirksworth. I agree the date of 11th January predates both marriages so could be applicable to either.

Of course they were still ignoring another of the general conditions, assuming Dolly was indeed under 21.

Dolly was baptised in Wirksworth on 13th March 1733 (presumably as an infant) but of course that was in the old calendar, so she could have been only 18 in Spring 1752 when she married.
As Pauline said, there's no mention of her being a minor on the licence, which makes me wonder if they couldn't get parental approval and so married out of their home parish - and did it in 2 different places just to be sure!

 

[Pauline]

It looks to me that the licence says they could marry in Crich, Matlock or Ashbourne (not Wirksworth)

Oops, yes! That’s what I meant to write but my brain must have already gone to sleep, I think.

 

[peter]

The first one for Robert Holloard to Grace Blake was 4th qtr 1854 - vol 5b - page 593 - Stoke Damerel and the second was 3rd qtr 1856 - vol 5b - page 654 - Stoke Damerel.

He was a Royal Marine and I have only found him on the 1861 census with Grace and no further entry for him but I may have found a Grace Hollard (correct spelling) in 1912 at Stoke on Trent.

Is there a plausible reason for this., does anyone know?

It's because when they first married Robert didn't have the permission of his commanding officer.

I do not have the book you refer to so I cannot look up the possible reasons for a double entry.

Time to buy it, perhaps?

 

[peter]

Dolly was baptised in Wirksworth on 13th March 1733 (presumably as an infant) but of course that was in the old calendar, so she could have been only 18 in Spring 1752 when she married. As Pauline said, there's no mention of her being a minor on the licence, which makes me wonder if they couldn't get parental approval and so married out of their home parish - and did it in 2 different places just to be sure!

It almost certain that Dolly was under 21, and that she married the first time without her parents' knowledge, let alone their permission. The likelihood is that the second ceremony was for the benefit of their families, permission having been gained in the interim.

Had the marriages been a few years later the names of the witnesses would have provided clues. See this newsletter article for a more recent example.